Private school : VAT : labour

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I have recently come across this petition. Not sure if many of you have seen this.

https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools?recruiter=false&utmsource=shareepetition&utmcampaign=psffcomboshareeinitial&utmmedium=whatsapp&utmmcontent=washarecopy376858822en-GB%3Acv451328&recruiteddbyid=44b8f4b0-d22c-11ee-82d6-61cc5900aa84&shareebanditexp=initial-37685882-en-GB

@Another76543 It is odd how much things vary around the country in the state system. We don't have school sixth forms for example and sixth formers go to college and are treated very much as young adults. I was bemused to hear from a work colleague who lives in another county that her child is still expected to wear uniform in sixth form and it's basically just a continuation of school.

It will have no impact on the rich private schools people think of when they hear the word private school, like Eton (or on rich parents). It will impact the small private schools, non-selective, non-profit making, SEN, etc, possibly putting many of them out of business. It will put extra strain on other schools, with middle class parents taking their children out of private education, particularly Grammars with excellent GCSE and A level results. Will the extra VAT cover the extra places needed in state schools? Particularly for support of SEN children and more children in 6th form. State schools are already stretched thin and under-resourced how is this going to help?

@MisterChips crazy how state institutions should be held accountable to democratically-elected local government and the people who actually use them isn't it? It would never happen in any other country...

True most people who send their kids to the biggest private schools do so with trusts set up by grandparents which currently provide massive tax advantages. Until that loophole is closed there will I wouldn’t be surprised if the largest schools like Eton generated the least in terms of VAT

I have put two children through private schools, both now at grammars. 100% they should not be VAT exempt. They are not charities. If you want to use one that is great but they absolutely are divisive and widen the educational attainment gap and should not be subsidised to do so.

To be fair, I do understand how people base their opinions on their own local area. Some might think that private school is a “luxury” because their own state school choices are excellent. Vast swathes of the country have underperforming state schools though.

Our own catchment primary is dreadful, despite being in an affluent area. Children join the school far ahead of the average but end up leaving far below average based on the SATs. Our choice was to either pay for private school, or to send them to a failing state school where hoards of children and teachers are leaving. Taxing private schools isn’t going to solve the state school issues. We need policies which actually improve the state system, rather than those that only seek to harm the private sector.

Perhaps everyone should fight for all state schools to be excellent?

100% they should not be VAT exempt. They are not charities.

The VAT position has nothing to do with charitable status. Around half of private schools are not registered charities but do not have to charge VAT on fees because of current VAT legislation.

Private schools are not “VAT exempt” either. They pay VAT on goods and services which they buy, and cannot reclaim that VAT, unlike state schools which can. The proposed VAT changes relate to whether or not VAT should be chargeable on fees (which parents, not the school, pay).

That’s not a 1 year or 5 year job. It would take decades of excellent investment for state schools to be comparable to Privates. I’m not going to sacrifice my ADHD son who passes for black (and so wouldn’t be treated well by State schools anyway) for that.

I totally agree. I’d be more than happy to use the state system if it actually offered my children a decent education. Many state schools don’t.

Unfortunately, many people (including the Labour Party) are using all their efforts to argue for a tax on the 6% of private school parents, rather than focussing on improving standards for the other 94%. It’s apparently ok as long as we make it “fair”, ie reduce standards for some to make it more equal.

If people actually wanted to improve the state system, they’d be proposing policies which raised a meaningful amount of money, such as an increase in income tax or a rise in the standard rate of VAT on all goods and services. This policy has nothing to do with improving the state system though, and everything to do with harming the private sector.

Exactly this. My children get one chance at their education. I am not about to sacrifice their education in pursuit of “fairness”. Unfortunately life isn’t always fair. Do I think it’s fair that some children can only access a decent education if they were lucky enough to be born to parents who can afford fees? Absolutely not. I think it’s an absolute disgrace that too many state schools fail our children and they are the only option for many families. Taxing private schools isn’t going to help with that though.

well regardless of the exact legalities they should be paying VAT. It is up to parents whether they want to use them or not.
Having more wealthy parents in the state system will drive up standards and force the government to invest more. It is a win win.

I'd love the state school sector to provide the standard of education that that best private schools do. I'd happy pay more tax to see this happen.
I have seen absolutely no evidence that VAT on private school fees will even move the dial in this regard.

There seems to be a tacit acceptance that state school education is a bit shit (sometimes very shit) and the way to sort this out is to hold back those in private education. I have not seen any information about how the VAT policy will improve state schools and educational outcomes for the kids in them.

Also- I am in Northern Ireland now which has the best academic performance in the UK- many of our grammars are much better than private schools, and we only have one private secondary school.

@Janedoe82

Having more wealthy parents in the state system will drive up standards and force the government to invest more.

How will that work? How will the standards be driven up? Why would the government invest more?

@Another76543 our state schools are pretty good and are under-subscribed (only 25 in DS's secondary class and there were fewer than 20 in his junior and infants classes). We have a lot of very rich people in the area (it is Surrey after all) but they keep themselves to themselves and all (presumably) send their children to private schools. It's a bit weird living in an area where half the children walk or cycle to the local schools and the other half you only ever see in passing through the window of a Range Rover or wearing jodphurs in Waitrose.

In the same way it does in Northern Ireland- they demand more! they lobby politicians, they are vocal!
Plus Grammar Schools ask for voluntary contributions of a few hundred pounds a year.

Will you be paying the back-VAT you think you should have paid on the fees that helped your two children pass their 11+? Or is it "I support this tax that other people should pay; drawbridge up?" Does your guilt extend to the divisive leg-up your children now receive in grammar school?

Voluntary payments / donations to government - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

As an economist, I think I'm rather good on what is a "subsidy". Can you explain how independent schools receive a "subsidy" and can you place it in context of the 3-4x greater actual subsidy received by state schools?

I am against this Labour plan. It may take Labour quite a while to draft it and bring it into force, but that is not much comfort for those including my family having to pay. I no longer pay fees as all my children have graduated.
I presume they will not impose VAT on provision of school meals, boarding element of fees (which can be 50% of boarding fees) but will have to charge it when local authorities pay £90k a year to special needs private schools. It is going to be complex to draft.

There's nothing that will improve state schools while the behaviour of one child in the class is so bad as to impact the learning of all and where there is no alternative provision or exclusion permitted and where parents refuse to back the school's disciplinary policies. No end of throwing money at it will help address the bad parents and lack of support.

Most - not all - independent schools- have a policy of 'behave or you're out'. Works to ensure good learning environment for the majority.

I appreciate that there are issues with support of children with SEN which need addressed- but the majority of bad behaviour is due to bad parenting of NT kids.

My children were educated privately in one country and in a grammar in another- and actually they moved to NI BEHIND their NI Peers despite 8 years of private education- so no leg up to get into a grammar.

Do I feel guilt that they are in a grammar school? absolutely!!! the eleven plus should also be abolished but that is the system I am in. I actually spoke at length to the Education Minister a couple of weeks ago about the embedded inequalities and that it was disgraceful that grammar schools have significantly more resources than secondary schools.

My point is- if you want to go to a private school that is fine, but do not expect the tax payer to contribute to it when it is your choice to use one.

I think you're arguing for more grammar schools and for greater freedom for parents to top up their schools' funds, not for a tax on private sector investment in education. Neither of those two policies are remotely near Labour's agenda, quite the opposite.

If it was "look, we tax private schools and we're going to open a grammar school in every town" then we'd be having a different debate.

In that context, I'm always hearing "forcing private school parents into state schools will magickly make the latter improve". I'm always asking for evidence or explanation. I'm always noting that wealthy parents in state schools buy catchment areas and tutoring, then LOL when their kids are treated as "less-privileged" at Oxbridge....and asking why anyone expects departing private school parents to become massive advocates of the state system more generally, in ways actual state school parents are not.

Answers on a postcard, because until there's an answer, this thing is a myth.

@Janedoe82

^ In the same way it does in Northern Ireland- they demand more! they lobby politicians, they are vocal!
Plus Grammar Schools ask for voluntary contributions of a few hundred pounds a year.^

a) So the problem in England is that the parents of the 94% of kids at state schools aren't demanding enough?! How would another 6% of voices change that?!

b) what about the kids that don't get in to the grammar schools

c) 'voluntary contributions' so asking people to pay fees then?

This is important and will have informed Labour’s policy planning. The state schools will be glad of extra pupils over the next decade.

Private SEN and other specialist schools will be exempt from any change in tax regime I believe.

1. to say that all state schools are therefore bad is nonsense.
2. Grammar schools are not the solution- my point it paying fees doesn't necessarily mean a better education. 3)Fees to NI grammars are voluntary- you don't have to pay them, many don't. Most do though to ensure kids have good resources. They are a tiny fraction of private school fees.