Private school : VAT : labour

[Usernamerequired123]

I have recently come across this petition. Not sure if many of you have seen this.

https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools?recruiter=false&utmsource=shareepetition&utmcampaign=psffcomboshareeinitial&utmmedium=whatsapp&utmmcontent=washarecopy376858822en-GB%3Acv451328&recruiteddbyid=44b8f4b0-d22c-11ee-82d6-61cc5900aa84&shareebanditexp=initial-37685882-en-GB

Because it is a populist policy. Have any of the supporters number crunched, analysed the policy and thought about the negative impact on state schools?
For example, how would state schools accommodate all the SEN kids who currently attending private because they couldn't deal with mainstream/their needs weren't being met?

@twistyizzy why do you assume anyone who disagrees with you isn't sufficiently competent to have considered the subject and have sound reasons?
Smacks of a certain arrogance...

I was merely replying to the poster who suggested that others "have no idea of the strength of feeling on this." with some evidence.

I am sure if someone wanted to put forward the arguments against the policy to people then they are free to do so, and people could then listen and make their own minds up, perhaps that has already happened?

Like the arrogance of wanting to disrupt the lives and education of 1000s of children just to score a political point you mean?
If you have scrutinised the policy and crunched the numbers based on different models of parent behaviour and still think VAT is a well thought out policy as opposed to gatheting more money in a sustainable way through income tax then great.

They are only charities so they don't have to pay VAT, you do realise this don't you.

I'm mixed about it, forcing private schools into charitable status sos they don't pay VAT means they have to provide a certain amount of free/reduced rate services to their local communities.

If they can't do this any longer then will local communities still be able to benefit from the schools resources?

However I also feel they are business and should really pay VAT. It's a hard one really and not straight forward.

Like the arrogance of wanting to disrupt the lives and education of 1000s of children just to score a political point you mean?

What did closing sure start centres do?
What did refusing to fund state schools adequately do?
What did make a whole series of bad decisions (whilst continuing with partying) during Covid do?

Also because most people don't think beyond the headline ie private companies offer swimming/music/dance, wrap around care etc and if private education is subject to VAT then these services could also fall under VAT. So many, many parents could fund themselves paying VAT on extra curricular activities.

I agree 100% but how is that related to private schools or the fault of private schools.
I completely support state education but the blame lies with politicians, not the children who attend private schools.
In any case, some of it is linked. Many SEN kids attend private schools because of the lack of funding in state schools.

They are only charities so they don't have to pay VAT, you do realise this don't you.

I’m assuming you’re unaware that the charity position and the VAT position are two entirely separate things? Around half of private schools are not charities as things currently stand, but they do not have to charge VAT because of VAT legislation. The Labour Party confirmed that they’re not planning to change the charity status (when they finally realised that removing charitable status wasn’t going to mean VAT was payable).

However I also feel they are business and should really pay VAT.

They do pay VAT on goods and services they buy, and cannot currently reclaim it, unlike VAT registered businesses. The proposed VAT change will be payable by parents, not by the schools. There is a difference between input and output VAT.

So many people in favour of the policy don’t even understand it.

This!

The nature of the first past the post system means that if you are not voting for one of the two main parties then you are helping the other.
That being so, the choice is currently between a party that has systematically spent 14 years ruining the state system and one that intends to take steps that it hopes will improve the education of millions of children.

They do pay VAT on goods and services they buy, and cannot currently reclaim it, unlike VAT registered businesses and state schools. The proposed VAT change will be payable by parents, not by the schools. There is a difference between input and output VAT.

They do pay VAT but currently claim it back. Once VAT applies they will be able to claim back VAT on all purchases.

Some people believe, or pretend to believe, this policy somehow makes the country better off. But if your objective is really to make other people and children worse off, and hang the consequences, because your "feelings" of anger and envy are so important to you, then it is certainly harder to debate.

I would point out for your own good that this policy won't make your anger and envy go away. You won't be happier. They'll still be casting their ugly shadow over your shoulder, gnawing away at your self-esteem and the happiness of those around you. You could find other ways to think about the world and the people you share it with.

You'd better hope you never need to count on civilised forces in society to defend you and yours against some other half-witted policy, when they come for you with pitchforks. Because that's where this class warfare winds up, every time. There is no country in the world where class warfare has made the poor better off.

What is a change.org petition going to do to stop a policy idea from a party not currently in power?

Hardly any private schools operate for a profit; no businesses in the education sector pay VAT on sales whether they are profit, non-profit or charitable.

It doesn't suggest anything of the sort, unless there's some evidence we're not aware of? And I'm pretty well aware of the Sutton Trust report (which is inconclusive) and the Francis Green stuff (which is nonsense) - is there anything else? I'm always curious, many thanks.

What are parents paying 1000s of pounds for if it is not for their children to get some kind of advantage? Are you saying that private schools are some big con?

It's no surprise that the minority who disagree with Labour's policy are scared of changing the status quo!

Who has said we send out kids there for an advantage? That's YOUR prejudice.
I send my DD there for freedom away from national curriculum and it best suits her learning. I send her there for proper arts and sports education which have been dramatically side lined in Gove's NC.
Our local state school are dire with poor outcomes.

A glib answer is: all sorts of things, the beauty of which is that it's their business.

A better answer is: special needs provision, longer hours and boarding school that make demanding careers possible, in-house extra-curricular activities (that state school parents also buy VAT-free).

And of course confidence they're receiving a good education, in the same way millions of families pay £1000s for a catchment area and VAT-free tutoring. For the overwhelming majority it's not "I want advantage / opportunity at the expense of others".

Most of us would be delighted to see free taxpayer-funded education improve in order to give us more / better choices, and because we're selfish enough to understand that when our neighbours / colleagues kids flourish in state education it's terrific for us...and conversely it's a tragedy when they don't.

Meanwhile knowing we're the strongest possible supporters of state education. We support state education much more than most of the people using it or advocating for its expansion; we pay, often several times over, for the non-existent unfunded place we're entitled to but don't use; we pay for other people's places; and the schools themselves contribute £5.1bn in tax on payroll, purchasing and impact on the downstream economy.

The irony, of course, is that a very few families are looking for the advantage/exclusivity/snobbery you mention, and they find it at some very few schools, which you'll have heard of. This tax will only serve to give them even more exclusivity than they already have.

Thank you for helpfully listing the advantages that you send your kids to private school for. I was a bit concerned that a previous poster had suggested people were wasting their money.

Not scared at all and more than happy to pay an extra 1p in the pound in income tax as a more sustainable policy. I oppose VAT because Labour are misleading people about the amount it will raise and are disingenuous in their claims it is to improve state schools. If they were serious about improving state education they would change income tax . They just won't admit this is a populist policy. That's what I object to.

Alternatively they could add 1% to the current VAT rate. That would raise far more money which could actually help state schools. People are all in favour of state schools being funded more until they are the ones having to pay for it.

An important part of the remit of any political party is surely to try and become the government. In order to do that they need to be popular?