Private school : VAT : labour

[Usernamerequired123]

I have recently come across this petition. Not sure if many of you have seen this.

https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools?recruiter=false&utmsource=shareepetition&utmcampaign=psffcomboshareeinitial&utmmedium=whatsapp&utmmcontent=washarecopy376858822en-GB%3Acv451328&recruiteddbyid=44b8f4b0-d22c-11ee-82d6-61cc5900aa84&shareebanditexp=initial-37685882-en-GB

As I said, so we agree that it is buying an advantage, that isn't available to all.
No shame in that, no reason not to be honest about it either.

In the interests of factual accuracy, since UK birth rates peaked in 2010, rolls in primary schools are falling, and are starting to do so in secondary schools as well.
In some areas that means that schools will need to start closing.

It’s about paying for an education which helps a child to fulfil their full potential; something which isn’t always available in the state sector.

Out of interest, do you also see parents in the state sector who live in expensive houses in great state catchments, use tutors, buy books, go on educational trips, eat fresh and healthy food etc as “buying an advantage?” Those things are certainly not available to all and arguably convey more of an advantage to children than a private education does.

Labour won't do it. It's just pre-election posturing.

Am happy to be place-marked for my claim.

They are also examples of buying an advantage. As I said no shame in it. I simply don't understand why some posters are pretending that is not what private schooling is about.

That’s correct. However, the vast majority of private school parents wont be happy to settle for a failing comp or badly performing primary school. It’s often why they use the private sector in the first place. I suspect that the main shift will happen at natural transition points (4,11,16) where parents will be fighting for the excellent state schools alongside everyone else. Any shift in numbers will affect the excellent state schools which don’t have spare places.

So why is no one campaigning for extra tax on those things? I have absolutely no shame in saying that I’m paying for an education because I feel it gives my children a chance to find their strengths and do their best; something which isn’t available in our catchment schools. I bought lots of books etc for them for the same reason.

I think the grammar school heads left out a few words there... surely it should read "squeeze even more deprived children out of grammar schools"?

Grammars aren't exactly socially representative as it is, are they?

No they’re not, which is precisely why any shift from private to state is more likely to affect the higher performing, often least socially diverse, state schools. It’ll make those schools even less diverse.

Yep - this year's year 7 is the peak secondary year I think. And the drop off is going to be sharper and more dramatic than people think - even this year's Y7 v next year's Y7 in my (fairly affluent outer London borough) is a shock in terms of catchment sizes - even the most desirable and oversubscribed schools have much larger catchments for the 2024/5 intake. After years of watching people scrabble to get a reasonably local place it's a fast and fascinating turnaround.

The problem will come down the track when schools have insufficient pupils to offer a full suite of GCSEs etc. More pupils in the state sector will help with that and tbh spreading affluence to a broader group of schools would be likely to do no harm either. The risk of economic segregation in comps and disproportionate harm to more deprived pupils is probably higher from dropping pupil numbers than from the VAT policy in terms of a pure numbers game. Some form of admissions reform + ringdencing of the education budget at current real levels should also be a priority for an incoming government.

It will make competition for grammar schools more intense than it is today. To the extent that competition is about buying an expensive house in a grammar school district and spending money on tutoring, it becomes more financially challenging for "poor but high potential" kids.

To the extent it's about extra homework and setting an 11-plus bar for quite young children, which I suspect few people consider intrinsically desirable, that bar becomes higher and the homework more intense, and I'm not convinced that's great news either.

Of course it's particularly "unfair" for want of a better word if (like me) you have a 12-year-old who's extremely bright and would have strolled into our nearest grammar school; if you thought (like me) you'd go to the geographically more convenient private school near your office and leave that grammar place for somebody else, and now you've probably missed the boat.

I'm actually off there next week to see if the grammar school has a place at 13+. Unlikely I know. But if they do then I'll accept it and probably I or Mrs Chips will quit our job - we won't need the second income any more and the school run won't allow us both to work as we currently do. That'll be a £40k hit to the public finances on our income taxes and NICs, plus the cost of the grammar school place. Please can one of the pro-VAT people tell me how that's making the country better for anyone?

Honestly I think grammars are a lost cause in terms of any form of meaningful social mobility, as well as being pretty iffy in terms of value add as educational institutions. When you add in the onward impacts to the non-grammars (let's not lie and call them comps) in fully grammar areas, they're pretty grim.

@MisterChips all the grammar schools near us are fee-paying (e.g. Royal Grammar School in Guildford, Reigate Grammar) so not really sure of the relevance? They will presumably be affected by the VAT increase just as much as other private schools.

There are 163 state grammar schools in England, which are clearly the ones posters are referring to.

https://inews.co.uk/news/grammar-schools-private-prep-free-meals-poor-pupils-1518598

This is a good article explaining why those grammars could well be affected more by any shift from private.

The poster is talking about actual state-funded grammars not the private schools that have "grammar" in their name like KGS and RGS.

So areas like Kent where kids sit the 11+ to find out whether they are streamed into a grammar or into a school with a less academic cohort.

As well as the superselectives like the Tiffins (but those have a less detrimental effect in terms of the impacts on other schools than in areas where the whole county is set up that way.

I have a DD at private school and I'm not signing that petition and I will be voting Labour.

Hello, those are only "grammar school" in name. Ex grammar schools that turned independent at some point. They'll be part of the education tax.

Actual grammar schools are free paid-for by taxpayers and academically selective mainly at 11+

Really? I'm very interested to hear why.

Ah, confusing. In that case we don't have what you call grammar schools here.

@Another76543 thanks. It seems these schools are very few and far between (there don't appear to be any in my county or any of the adjoining counties as far as I can tell) so I expect the impact will be fairly minimal as they simply won't be an option for the vast majority of those who are being priced out of private schools.

No, a lot of the country don’t. We don’t live in catchment of a state grammar school either. It’s a good example of how there is huge inequality across the state system which very few seem to have an issue with.

My son is at Private school but we wont be affected as he will have left by the time this comes in. I actually dont oppose it in principle but I have a few isssues with it.
The very rich wont care so it will be the middle (again) who are affected
Where are those DC who have to leave going to go? Even rubbish schools near me are mostly full
Will the money be used to benefit schools? Private schools shouldnt be necessary, I would happily have sent my 2 to State if the State option hadnt been so awful.

The grammar system is a strange one. Whilst on the face of it they might not be an option for some, it’s not unheard of for families to move to a catchment of grammar, or to temporarily rent near a grammar in order to get a place. There were higher applications from a local prep this year to the nearest grammar than in previous years, because of the threat of VAT. Even if they didn’t live in catchment, some just rented in an area they knew would ensure a place.

Some private schools retain the name "Grammar" for some reason. Ours does and its non selective.
I imagine that person is talking about selective State Grammars

To be fair to the Labour Party, their ideology on grammar schools, academies and free schools (as in, taxpayer-funded schools that are independent of local authorities and set up by e..g, parent groups)....is consistent with their ideology on independent schools. All should be under local authority control, and they want local authorities to have discretion to shut them down.

A labour spokesman said "“Labour will require all schools to cooperate with their local authority on admissions, special educational needs and disabilities inclusion and place planning, making all branches of the education system work together more effectively so that we drive high and rising standards in our schools despite the challenging fiscal environment.”

They know that'll lose them a massive chunk of middle-class votes, so that's not official policy in their manifesto.