Private school : VAT : labour

[Usernamerequired123]

I have recently come across this petition. Not sure if many of you have seen this.

https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools?recruiter=false&utmsource=shareepetition&utmcampaign=psffcomboshareeinitial&utmmedium=whatsapp&utmmcontent=washarecopy376858822en-GB%3Acv451328&recruiteddbyid=44b8f4b0-d22c-11ee-82d6-61cc5900aa84&shareebanditexp=initial-37685882-en-GB

And now we've gone right down the rabbit hole. Taxing schools "isn't taxing education".

When you were a private school parent, how on earth did you educate your children, given whatever they did at private school wasn't education?

Absolutely correct. I like my children to be taught by subject specialists. My children are currently taught by specialists in every single subject (including subjects which most state schools don’t even offer). That shouldn’t be seen as a luxury. It should be the norm. We need to start by improving the state system so people don’t have a need to use private schools. Increasing the pressure on state schools by encouraging pupils to shift there from private schools isn’t the answer.

You wrote "The cost of going to private school has gone up rapidly in the past 5 years, and at the same times their rolls have increased."

Upon which you assume different families will pay even more, and a much larger hike (3x to 5x) bigger than was seen previously, despite the cost-of-living crisis etc.

And I'm saying that's an example of somebody who has yet to understand the issue. You can't make that assumption, for the reasons outlined in the thought experiment.

They are private businesses that offer an educational service to those that choose to pay for it.

So, it's education? You did say it isn't education. Or is there a difference between "education" and "an educational service"?

Because the VAT exemption on tutoring, after school clubs, residential childcare, holiday camps, tutoring, music lessons, school trips, drama classes, is part of the same exemption. And to answer my own question, all used extensively by state school families, because those services are part of the private school package as you have rightly said.

So are those things "education" or "an educational service" or "a luxury"? Should they all be taxed? I'm for keeping them exempt, because I want music lessons for state school kids to be available to as many as possible and because I consider them to have social benefit.

In the interests of factual accuracy I would like to point out there are a growing number of private schools owned by venture capitalists.

They aren't the same thing at all.
Private schools are full time classes where exams are sat, and used as an alternative to state school education. Those above are extra curricular activities.

But are they (like private schools) education, for tax purposes? Would it be fair if they become (per the proposal) VATable in private schools, but VAT-free for state school families?

Do you know the % of the c2.5k independent schools?

Just thinking about this logically. If the government required private schools to charge VAT and then many of them closed as a result, the students would then have to be enrolled at the state schools in the nicer areas (being wealthy naturally). And the government would end up spending more money on overall funding in state schools in desirable areas compared to poorer sreas. Extra VAT receipts will not be as great because many private schools will have closed.

I feel like this would just inadvertently increase inequality within the state school system, which is already pretty bad.

Yes. But anyone that didn't want to pay the VAT could access these services outwith school.

I'm sure some people look at this from an ideological perspective rather than purely economic - nothing wrong with that. And for many people their opinions are probably a mix of reasons.

The thing that really confuses me though is this mantra that people who don't have a problem with VAT being charged must be driven by envy or anger. What's to be envious of? Pretty much everyone on here who is a customer of private education has said it's because it's necessary for their child to achieve well, or even just to manage within an education system. One poster even said that if VAT gets charged, they'd move heaven and earth to get their child into a grammar school and give up work because they'd no longer need a second income if not paying school fees! So it's not like these parents are even doing jobs they want; it's a necessity for them. Why would anyone be envious of people who feel they have no real choice but to pay hefty school fees?

I'm not convinced Labour will implement this anyway if - or rather when! - they're elected and it's certainly not top of the agenda of what needs sorting from the mess of the years of Tory govt. But I honestly find the reasoning of some posters weird! I think it's only from the likes of Eton that there's a very clear link to top positions of power - and I don't think anyone on this thread has admitted to pay

which 'activities' in private school exactly are you talking about?? most things are included in the fees already.
Your point doesn't make sense. Private schools don't also facilitate private tutoring you pay them for separately.

Sorry hit post too soon

I don't think anyone has admitted here to paying for eton etc for those 'advantages' - though in the light of recent govt id be embarrassed to admit that too! Most posters have explained they pay for private out of feeling they have no choice

It does make sense. Those things which are often included in fees would, presumably, become subject to VAT (unless there are some complicated carve out provisions in the legislation). We’d have a situation where parents in the private sector would, therefore, be paying VAT on those things, but those paying for the same things outside a private school setting would not.

Indeed, working dual 50-hour weeks at 62pc marginal tax rate and full withdrawal of childcare benefit in order to earn after-tax income to afford the fees isn't obviously the most "enviable" proposition.

Which is why a stack of people instead are very content to earn (say) £50-£70k and "go state" - catchment area and VAT-free tutoring, school for free, paid for by the public finances. The equivalent, below, of jumping into the cart.

What we're all saying. We're pulling the cart right now, and being shouted at to pull even harder. The public finances, and the state school system, really don't want more people jumping into the cart.

I know. I spent 20 years doing vat returns

Aren't you lucky not to have to be in the cart.

@MisterChips yes, which is why I really don't get the accusations of envy!

It's a combination of luck and hard work. the hard work can be withdrawn. The real luxury is to have the choice. Is it "lucky" as in "a great place to be?" As @elisamun said, it's not obviously enviable.

That's the thing about a society that begrudges, envies "the rich" while taxing "the rich" and demanding even more taxes on "the rich". It would look pretty stoopid without "the rich".

What we're not hearing: "We want better schools (like Finland) and we want to pay for them via taxation of middle earners (like Finland)".

You had agreed with a poster who had stated that private schools “should pay VAT as other businesses do”. I was pointing out that they already do (although currently can’t reclaim that input VAT through VAT returns).

They are all included in the set fee. That you choose to buy into when you go to a private school. There aren’t all separate payments.

Exactly, which means that only some people will end up paying VAT on exactly the same things. Those things will only be taxable if you access them through a private school, not elsewhere. If we are talking about “fairness”, which apparently is what this policy is about, these things should be taxed across the board.

Absolutely I want all schools to be as good as possible and for the inequalities (which will inevitably still exist - they can never be completely eradicated) to be reduced as far as possible. That's a win for everyone. Poor education, along with poor parenting, is costly to society.

I just don't see this envy and begrudging that keeps being repeated as a main driver for people signing the petition (which was the start of this thread) I think most people are probably driven more by a more collective rather than individualist perspective. And probably driven by a dose of Boris as a high profile product of elitist education!

But I'm not stupid, I know that most private schools don't exist to make their intake believe that they are superior to the 94% or so of the population in maintained schools. Many private schools are quite ordinary low key set ups without any large foundation and provide for parents who sadly don't have any great alternative.

We hand you a stick, you pick the wrong end of it.

The question, to you, is do you think those activities should be VAT exempt, because they are "education"? Or do you think they are "luxuries"? Or do you think they are luxuries if they happen to be provided by a private school, but not luxuries if they are provided by a state school or after-hours?