Private school : VAT : labour

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I have recently come across this petition. Not sure if many of you have seen this.

https://www.change.org/p/stop-labour-from-adding-20-vat-to-private-school-fees-and-forcing-kids-to-change-schools?recruiter=false&utmsource=shareepetition&utmcampaign=psffcomboshareeinitial&utmmedium=whatsapp&utmmcontent=washarecopy376858822en-GB%3Acv451328&recruiteddbyid=44b8f4b0-d22c-11ee-82d6-61cc5900aa84&shareebanditexp=initial-37685882-en-GB

The public purse isn’t supporting my children. The potential VAT on our fees is still less than the amount we are saving the public purse by not using the state system. My decision to use private education saves the public purse money.

Not charging VAT doesn’t mean that the public purse is supporting something. When people buy a (VAT free) loaf of bread in the supermarket, do you think the public purse is supporting that purchase?

What a ridiculous situation we will have if education becomes taxable, but people can still buy designer children’s clothing with no VAT added, as an example.

If I thought this policy would stop children attending private schools I would agree with you- but it won't.
You are absolutely right- my children have benefitted from great educations, but that doesn't mean I am OK with the systemic inequality private schools embed. As I have said several times- if you want to use a private school do so, but the government should NOT be giving a VAT reduction, effectively subsiding this, when one in four children in the UK are in poverty. Bottom line- it is MORALLY wrong.

It’s not a “loop hole”. It’s a fundamental idea that we should not tax education. Most sensible countries and economies would encourage a system providing an excellent education, not seek to destroy it. Education should be seen as a basic human right.

Most area of England don't have grammar schools, so they're only really an alternative to comprehensive schools for a very small minority. Similar to the very small minority in private schools.

I don't have a problem with charging VAT to private schools. Ideologically I wish they didn't exist at all - though I can see some parents feel they are an essential part of life and realistically they are likely to always be with us in some form.

It doesn't go to reserves (and the vast majority of private schools don't have any reserves). It's part of an industry-wide VAT exemption that exists for good reason, as followed by ....every other country (except, as a matter of detail, New Zealand which almost entirely offsets the GST with a direct subsidy to private schools and also coinvests in their fixed costs).

What do you think the tax footprint of state education compared to private education is? Because it makes little sense to lose your hair about the latter without taking into account the former.

Private schools and state education are entirely different things, the latter are open to all, the former a luxury.

New Zealand which almost entirely offsets the GST with a direct subsidy to private schools and also coinvests in their fixed costs)

I’d be happy to pay VAT if I received a subsidy equivalent to the per-head funding in the state system. We’d be better off to the tune of several thousand pounds a year, as would nearly all private school parents.

I absolutely understand why private school parents would be annoyed by this proposed policy-no one wants to spend more than they have to. But that doesn't mean it is justifiable.
I don't want to have to pay more for Council Tax, or when living in Scotland higher income tax- but such is life!!

What makes them a “luxury”? What’s your definition? Some of the private schools I’ve visited have far fewer resources than nearby state schools.

Interestingly, going slightly off topic, the state schools in our area with the best facilities (drama studios, recording studios, state of the art indoor sports courts, squash courts, Astro etc) seem to have the worst outcomes for children.

They are a luxury in that 1) you don't have to spend the money on them if you choose not to.
2) you are paying generally for smaller classes with children with less educational challenges in them, with engaged parents prepared to invest in their children's education. Basically you have a learning environment which optimises chances of educational success. I obviously can't comment on every private school, but the ones I have used (two different ones), offered many onsite extra curricular activities which friends children in state education didn't have.

Why this assumption that everyone who supports the policy doesn't understand it and where VAT will be added? It's quite bizarre! carmel1974

It feels a bit of a cheap shot to just tell posters who disagree with you that they don't understand the issue. lizzowhiz

The quote above...

There's no possible comparison between smaller historical increases paid by different people, (like janedoe when she was happy paying private school and before she discovered a way to get a superior education paid for by others); and a much larger increase to be paid by a new cohort of people who face totally different economic challenges (post-pandemic, inflation, fiscal drag, house prices and the rest).

Try this:

• You paid £10 for something. Then the price went up and you paid £11. Then again and you paid £12.
• Can I now assume you are willing to pay £13? (hint: no)
• Can I also assume you're willing to pay £17? (hint: definitely no)
• Can I also assume some other customer five years later is willing to pay £19? (even more, no)
• Does it matter if their other outgoings (bills, groceries, mortgage, house price, taxes, stamp duty) have gone up like everyone else, so their disposable income is down? Can I now asssume they're willing to pay £19? (obviously, for heaven's sake, no)

JessS1990 says yes to all the above. Does she "understand the issue"? What does anyone else think of her position?

I wonder if any state school kids up and down the land get extra-curricular activities? Do they pay VAT on them, being a "luxury"? Or are they "not a luxury"?

I wonder if any state school kids get tutoring? Do they pay VAT too? Is that a "luxury"?

"a learning environment which optimises chances of educational success". Yep, that sounds terrible, we'd better stop people having that.

Basically you have a learning environment which optimises chances of educational success

What a sorry state of affairs it is when this is seen as a luxury.

I didn't 'discover' grammar schools as a cheaper way to get a private school education, that is the system in NI where there is only one very small private secondary.

The reason the Conservative Party won't go all-out for education vouchers - the deadweight cost of handing money (that's to say, actually handing money) to private school families. Which perfectly illustrates the strongly positive effect of private schools on the public finances.

Thank you, we have long been searching for a Brexit benefit and now we have found one. I am surprised Boris and Nigel didn't campaign on that basis rather than their lies about the NHS and migrants.

It optimises as it excludes children that need more support in the classroom. They just deliberately don't cater for them to a great degree.

Er...not a "cheaper way to get a private school education", nobody said that.

A free taxpayer-funded way to get a great education for your kids. Good for you, but it's hardly the moral high ground from which to insist that others, who already pay for state education they don't use, should pay even more.

I don't understand what you mean by "it isn't taxing education" - the proposal is exactly that, to stop education being an exempt supply (at least when provided by an independent school) so that parents are taxed on the fees they pay for education. Do you mean it wouldn't be taxing all forms of education?

Also, the VAT that is proposed would be charged to parents not the school. Schools already pay VAT.

They’re not. They don’t have shareholders, all money made goes back into the school. With the exception of a small handful of schools with massive endowments most fees are spent largely on teachers’ salaries as the main costs . Of course there’s a political argument about equality but the current plan will actually make things worse for those in the state sector.

I previously said ALL state education should be at the same standard as grammar schools.
Maybe all these parents who aren't going to be able to afford school fees should move to Belfast if they are that worried- there are at least ten grammars that wipe the floor with many privates.

@Janedoe82 - it won’t be charged directly to parents. Schools are currently planning how they might manage this but most will be planning to share the costs. Although of course if it goes thin it’s current iteration many schools will have to close.

I think perhaps you are confusing me with another poster, since I haven't answered those questions.

What actual evidence is there that schools will close? you are assuming that parents won't pay- I don't think this is the case from my experience with private school parents. They will cut their cloth.

I’d argue that in the current climate you are paying for a more liberal and broader curriculum and qualified staff. So many state schools now have GCSE taught by non specialist teachers and also A level with classes sometimes not having a teacher at all. My school, big independent, has experienced staff with excellent qualifications in all subjects including shortage ones like Maths and Physics.