Please sign and share?

[howdeydudey]

I've noticed over the years that various individuals and organisations create petitions that sound really promising, but the support gets fragmented across them.

If we all pulled together and supported just one petition, we might get enough signatures and traction to actually make something happen?

With that in mind, could we perhaps all sign and share the following? Share with family, friends, anyone who might possibly sign. And ask them to make sure they share too?

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/603110

Let's be honest here, @howdeydudey, how many fathers want to parent 5050 when the baby is young? When they're really intense? As opposed to when older and independent?
The stats show that even in the 10 % of lone parent families that are headed by a male, majority are parenting teens...
Why do you think that is?
My suggestions... It is easier as the children are more independent, no childcare costs, fathers are more likely to play to the crowd and be more "easy going" and not instill rules/expectations.
Whether you wish to cite this as misandry or not is irrelevant, the proof is in the pudding/stats.

[quote ChoiceMummy]@howdeydudey
Gosh so you're also leading us to believe that alongside you working full time that meant you weren't at home for 6 out of 7 days?

I noticed the jibe about your ex attending a dancing class whilst you didn't attend any work socials!

Likewise, your "any day I was able to" comment, effectively means pick and mixed parenting and drudge work (note I would never refer to my child as being drudge, however, the ironing, etc most certainly is! But I applaud you for your poor attempt at what was so obviously point scoring). Whilst your wife was ALWAYS responsible and always a parent.

I always wonder in these scenarios, whether there would be any common ground at all if your ex wife was on here posting. How much involvement in the day to day lives of your children she would say you had, how many meals you really ever cooked, how much vomit you really cleaned up...

It's certainly evident that you never missed work for the sick children, as nothing was allowed to interrupt your work sacrifice.[/quote]
And once we separated, who do you think did my ironing then?

Can you not see how biased you are being? We men are capable of doing these things, you know.

You asked specifically about my history. So I've told you. And you don't like it.

My "wife" wasn't always responsible. Many weekends towards the end of the time I lived with her she wasn't even around.

You seem to think that households can function with no money coming in? The reality is that one (or both) parents usually have to work. And you have to make a decision, as a family, which way that works better. But yes, my point stands. I did the "work work" AND an awful lot of the child care as well. If you treat the childcare and the office work both as being work, I did a considerable number of hours extra per week than she did.

And I would have LOVED to stop the office work and care for the children full time. It just didn't make sense overall as a family.

Should children then be told they shouldn't see one parent as much later in life just because that parent made that sacrifice?

What do you think happens on the days the children are now in my care? What do you think happens if they are sick?

That's right. I deal with it.

Give us the chance, and we'll do everything you do.

The point is - we aren't given the chance.

And yes - you did say "when the drudge work of parenting".

And yes, my ex was out 3 or 4 nights a week while I was home with the children. I probably went out after work about once every 2 months.

I know you probably find that hard to believe so will change the subject again trying to find anything you can to make yourself right.

But you aren't.

@ChoiceMummy

Let's be honest here, *@howdeydudey*, how many fathers want to parent 5050 when the baby is young? When they're really intense? As opposed to when older and independent? The stats show that even in the 10 % of lone parent families that are headed by a male, majority are parenting teens... Why do you think that is? My suggestions... It is easier as the children are more independent, no childcare costs, fathers are more likely to play to the crowd and be more "easy going" and not instill rules/expectations. Whether you wish to cite this as misandry or not is irrelevant, the proof is in the pudding/stats.

Perhaps it's because by the time they are teens, the biased courts are no longer able to stop those children from simply getting up and saying "hey, mum, I'm going to dad's"...?

Or more likely it's because our work system still unfortunately treats women as 2nd class systems in many ways. We still have a glass ceiling for women that unfairly limits them in many lines of work. Women often still don't earn the same for doing the same job as a man. This is clearly wrong.

But it creates a situation where it still makes more sense for the man to return to work than the woman.

@sashh

But the contrast is there. It's astounding. Take away the male/female aspect and people are mostly happy for 50/50 parenting., or at least for it to be an option. Make it between a man and woman, and the misandry is apparent. On this thread, nobody has even considered that in some (many) cases it is actually best for the child.

Read my post again, what I say is that it should be what is best for the child but apparently that is misandry.

Give your head a wobble.

I have made the point in that nobody on this forum has come out in support of 50/50. In fact many have resorted in clinging to edge cases or personal attacks that really, they didn't even have to get involved in.

On the other one, most people say "50/50".

The contrast is there. I'm not referring to you specifically. Please read the whole thread and not just your own posts?

@howdeydudey
There are no doubt situations where 5050 works for the parents. Less so that it's in the best interests of the children, imo. But the issue throughout this thread is your insistence that 5050 should be the default.
Every situation is unique and each situation needs to be treated in that manner.
Whereas your approach is actually backwards in presuming that carving up the children's time, as though they're one homogeneous group with the same needs, to meet the desires of the fathers.

I wonder why if you're so pleased with your own personal setup that you're so involved in pro opting this petition, given that in your own circumstances you know you have a limited time left. Being blunt, if I was given a death sentence tomorrow, like hell I'd be bothering with a forum or other people's circumstances, my emphasis would be on my children. Surely, ploughing this energy I to them would be more beneficial for them and you? I'm not sure if its half term where you are or not, if it is, spend your energies on your children in the here and now. Build those memories.

The contrast is there. I'm not referring to you specifically. Please read the whole thread and not just your own posts?

You quoted my post in your reply, that's fairly specific.
As for other posts, I don't think people asking about ironing are meaning YOUR ironing, rather they are asking about the household ironing.

@sashh

The contrast is there. I'm not referring to you specifically. Please read the whole thread and not just your own posts?

You quoted my post in your reply, that's fairly specific.
As for other posts, I don't think people asking about ironing are meaning YOUR ironing, rather they are asking about the household ironing.

Sorry - I consider any ironing in the house - be it for my clothes or the children's, to be my ironing... the children don't use the iron.

[quote ChoiceMummy]@howdeydudey
There are no doubt situations where 5050 works for the parents. Less so that it's in the best interests of the children, imo. But the issue throughout this thread is your insistence that 5050 should be the default.
Every situation is unique and each situation needs to be treated in that manner.
Whereas your approach is actually backwards in presuming that carving up the children's time, as though they're one homogeneous group with the same needs, to meet the desires of the fathers.

I wonder why if you're so pleased with your own personal setup that you're so involved in pro opting this petition, given that in your own circumstances you know you have a limited time left. Being blunt, if I was given a death sentence tomorrow, like hell I'd be bothering with a forum or other people's circumstances, my emphasis would be on my children. Surely, ploughing this energy I to them would be more beneficial for them and you? I'm not sure if its half term where you are or not, if it is, spend your energies on your children in the here and now. Build those memories.[/quote]
Yes. I think 50/50 should be the default because I think in the vast majority of cases where both parents want to have time and care for the children more, this is the best situation.

I'm not pleased with my own personal setup. My children are asking me what they can do to spend more time with me. They WANT it.

But the answer is... nothing. Because our society is against fathers having equal time or more with their children.

This is about MY children and what they want.

You say every situation is unique. So you think every situation should go to court?

We're trying to set a better default than what we have at the moment. The current default is carnage. It's a free-for-all where people use the children as pawns. That is why so, so many cases end up in court.

It’s really obvious when it’s a misogynist writing who really doesn’t like women, isn’t it Thought you were going to give up replying to comments some time ago OP?

“Misandry” makes me laugh as much as when a white person says “reverse racism”

Oh won’t someone think of the menz.

Come back OP when 2-3 men are being murdered by their current or ex female partners, when women who are so abusive to their partners that despite a long track record of arrests and charges, they still get unfettered access to their children.

The hard facts OP is that a LOT of men ARE abusive to their partners, and whilst they might not be directly abusive to their children, it’s indirect abuse by doing it front of them. It is THOSE cases that end up in court.

And I’m sure your DC do say that to you, they’re hardly going to say they don’t want to, are they?

@LightfoldEngines

“Misandry” makes me laugh as much as when a white person says “reverse racism”

Oh won’t someone think of the menz.

Come back OP when 2-3 men are being murdered by their current or ex female partners, when women who are so abusive to their partners that despite a long track record of arrests and charges, they still get unfettered access to their children.

The hard facts OP is that a LOT of men ARE abusive to their partners, and whilst they might not be directly abusive to their children, it’s indirect abuse by doing it front of them. It is THOSE cases that end up in court.

And I’m sure your DC do say that to you, they’re hardly going to say they don’t want to, are they?

And I've never disagreed with this...

Your need to throw all men in the same category states actually that you hate men.

I don't dislike women at all. In fact my partner, who is a woman, agrees with me about the courts and so on. She's seen first hand how my totally reasonable requests fall on deaf ears where courts are concerned.

It's very easy to mock people, or claim we're using "reverse racism" or whatever. I haven't though. It doesn't make you sound clever claiming it.

Domestic violence, by anyone, is never a good thing. I do not stand behind people that are violent.

But I will stand behind the many, many good fathers who are treated as 2nd class citizens in their children's lives simply because some mothers think they are somehow naturally more special or powerful as a parent simply because they are a female.

You can make personal attacks against me all you like. It really doesn't affect me. But at least try to use facts, not just made up lies, hey?

Far too many women are killed by the ex or current partners. In 2018, there were 91.

www.endviolenceagainstwomen.org.uk/femicide-census-reveals-half-of-uk-women-killed-by-men-die-at-hands-of-partner-or-ex/

The biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide and 12 men take their own lives every day in the UK. Every day.

Many of these are fathers. Take from that what you will.

But I still believe that children should have a right to see both parents equally, on the assumption that neither parent is guilty of DV.

Your offensive, dismissive "Oh won’t someone think of the menz" comment is indicative of the problem here - you simply can't see the full picture, with every victim.

While I am completely at ease with agreeing that too many men are guilty of DV, you can't even for one second consider those men that are.

You can't for one second believe that my children would actually want equal time with me.

So you shut it out, mock it. Make assumptions about the lives of people you you nothing about.

No thanks. I watch my sister and sister in law have their time with the kids taken away and the father doesn't even do any childcare. Just wants to pay no maintenance then ships them off to the new girlfriend/girlfriends family and doesn't actually spend any time with them. Dumps then whenever they like. Treated like second class citizens in their home. Attempting to poison them against their mother by telling them how stupid she is and how mean she is. These men did no pulling their weight when they were babies.

Because our society is against fathers having equal time or more with their children. I don't think that's necessarily true, it's just that overwhelming majority of single parents is mothers. Why? I mean, we can speculate about the reason, but the most obvious one is that fathers don't want to get involved. If they did the legislations would reflect that. I don't think 50-50 as a default is reasonable given that only 25% of men take their paternity leave (and it's only 2 weeks).

@girafferafferaffe

No thanks. I watch my sister and sister in law have their time with the kids taken away and the father doesn't even do any childcare. Just wants to pay no maintenance then ships them off to the new girlfriend/girlfriends family and doesn't actually spend any time with them. Dumps then whenever they like. Treated like second class citizens in their home. Attempting to poison them against their mother by telling them how stupid she is and how mean she is. These men did no pulling their weight when they were babies.

So tarnish all men with the same brush.

That is the very definition of prejudice....

@RitaJosephina

Because our society is against fathers having equal time or more with their children. I don't think that's necessarily true, it's just that overwhelming majority of single parents is mothers. Why? I mean, we can speculate about the reason, but the most obvious one is that fathers don't want to get involved. If they did the legislations would reflect that. I don't think 50-50 as a default is reasonable given that only 25% of men take their paternity leave (and it's only 2 weeks).

Quite. Why is paternity leave in this country so far behind so many other countries?

Why are so many other countries already having a default of shared equal time?

I'm not, and never have been referring to the fathers that don't want to get involved. That is up to them.

I'm talking about the many, many good, caring fathers who for some reason are discriminated against. Mainly because of people such as those on this board who seem to just "hate men".

If you can't see that you are falling in to this category, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

@howdeydudey
41% (37 of 91) of women killed by a partner/former partner in 2018, had separated or taken steps to separate from him with 30% of them (11/37) killed within the first month and 70% (24/37) killed within the first year post separation.

You're right that many of those men committing suicide under 45 are fathers. But tbh that's sort of obviously going to be the situation isn't it given that the vast majority of fathers will have had their first child by that age. So it's not how it's presented significant on its own.
Likewise its well understood that married men live longer than unmarried men. Whereas unmarried women live longer than married women. So, is it the marital breakdown specifically causing the suicidal issue or the fact that outside of marriage men fair worse? The Samaritans acknowledge this most years stating that divorce is the greatest risk, they do not, however, mention anything specific about it beigg linked to their children contact and there can be no such deduction based in fact at this time, no matter how much fathers4justice attempt to blind fathers to thinking otherwise.

I disagree that children should have a right to see both parents equally. They should, assuming no safeguarding etc, have contact with both parents. I don't believe that this means that the parents should be able to say they should have their 84 hours per week! Equality in terms of family contact doesn’t mean each parent having the same time with the children, rather it means giving children the opportunity to have quality time with both. As I said before, even the government conclude that it's the quality of the time that mattered more, namely paternal involvement, in their child’s educational and enrichment activities.
And that effectively it's more about the man's ego having taken a knock and it needing stroking so that their psychological/emotional perception of their fathering is significant!

As for your statement that posters cannot believe that they wish to spend time with you. Of course that is possible. What worries more is that they've been used as pawns in your battle with your ex, and have possibly been subject to parental alienation by both parents and manipulation. That's what happens so often when there are these disagreements and yet the parents often seem incapable of recognising that they too have damaged their children. And sadly, in your scenario, you've the cancer card being played whether you feel you have been waving this around or not. Children pick up on all of these subtleties that they will have all this time with their mother but not the father etc. Even if this has happened subconsciously it will have happened.

The subject of paternity leave is a red herring. Fathers have always been able to take time off work with their children. How much unpaid parental leave have you taken, despite having been eligible for the last 13 years? Same opportunity to do so as women have. That you'd have been eligible for from the outset. So hardly that badly done to are fathers?

No thank you, I don't agree with the principle. Every child and household is different and the child's home and visitation should be what's right for them.

Quite. Why is paternity leave in this country so far behind so many other countries?

That's a question to people that create these policies, but as mentioned earlier only 25% of fathers take the parental leave as it is and it's only 2 weeks. It seems pointless to make it 6 months as a default, although I agree that if parents decide to share the standard maternity leave it should be possible. Oh wait, it is ALREADY possible, so you should probably read a bit more around that topic.

Why are so many other countries already having a default of shared equal time?

Are there? I know of 4 - Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark. What are others?

I'm not, and never have been referring to the fathers that don't want to get involved. That is up to them.

But these are in majority, so it's only logical to make decisions based on majority. These can always be amended when such a great father like you decide to get involved. If you do your fair share of parenting then it shouldn't be difficult to prove that in court and get 50-50 arrangements with your ex partner.

*I'm talking about the many, many good, caring fathers who for some reason are discriminated against. Mainly because of people such as those on this board who seem to just "hate men".

If you can't see that you are falling in to this category, then you are part of the problem, not part of the solution.*

I don't hate men. I just made an opinion based on facts. It seems that the cause is close to your heart and it's great. I truly believe that you want your children to be happy and you want to be a great father. But numbers don't lie, you are in minority.

I don’t hate men either, I’m just tired of being mansplained to and bitched at by the biggest danger to and the biggest repressors of women.

@ChoiceMummy

I'm going to skip most of your response because a) a lot of it a agree with and b) some is just ranting.

However I will reply to this:

"How much unpaid parental leave have you taken, despite having been eligible for the last 13 years? "

I work on a contract basis and have taken many, many months off to spend with the children. Unpaid. Through choice.

You disagree that children should spend time with parents equally. So you'd be happier for them to spend more time with the father (in cases where the father can and is a great parent) than equal time with each parent, correct?

@RitaJosephina

"Oh wait, it is ALREADY possible, so you should probably read a bit more around that topic."

The statutory weekly rate of Paternity Pay is £151.97, or 90% of your average weekly earnings (whichever is lower). Most people simply can't afford to live on that, especially when the mother isn't earning. They have NO choice but to stay at work!

"Are there? I know of 4 - Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark. What are others?"

I think maybe Belgium, and Canada is following. But actually many countries are seeing a move towards shared care without needing legislation. And although you will find some studies that disagree, I believe the majority show increased happiness both for the children and the parents.

"But these are in majority"

Sorry - I don't buy this. Do you have a source for that?

Many men just give up because it takes so much time, effort and indeed money just to keep trying to do what is right for their children.

These men are a large part of your statistics too. I personally know far more men who wanted to spend more time with their children and can't, than didn't want to.

I don't know any.
All I hear, from both women and men, is that there's some reason why they can't reliably have their DC EOW and one night in the week.
I work in a sector that deals with these issues and in the last year I have come across one man who wanted more access and countless women asking how can I get my ex to take the DC when he has arranged to (either by informal arrangement or court order).

@GoldenBlue

No thank you, I don't agree with the principle. Every child and household is different and the child's home and visitation should be what's right for them.

That nails it.

There's lots of petitions I happily support, but this isn't one of them.

The statutory weekly rate of Paternity Pay is £151.97, or 90% of your average weekly earnings (whichever is lower). Most people simply can't afford to live on that, especially when the mother isn't earning. They have NO choice but to stay at work!

Father's who want to be at home with the newborn do this. They plan for it. So, the same way you planned fiscally to be with your children for some short periods to compensate for your 6 day absences for long contract periods, fathers plan to manage this 2 weeks period. I know many who have had this 2 weeks period and all of their accrued annual leave so taken 6 weeks off and some who then have taken a combination of shared parental leave - where the woman returned to work and/or 4 weeks parental leave.

It's a case of if you actually want to do it you will. So I suppose those who don't just don't want to.

Also, as much as I'm an advocate for sahps, but please stop perpetuating myths that all of these women stopping the 5050 contact don't work, according to gov stats, 83% of women return to work after maternity leave. It's incredibly rare for a mother not to be juggling everything, as was the case for youex, given that she was quite obviously the primary caregiver as you were contracting away from home for 6 days a week for long periods.
But of course, many divorced fathers suddenly when divorced can be omnipresent or farm the care work to their parents, so that the mother does not have the children as that's fair!

There are so many mistakes here I'm not sure where to begin.

Let's start here...

I didn't contract "away from home"

I was always the one giving the children breakfast. Every morning of every day of every week. I was the one putting them to bed and reading to them. Every night of every week.

On top of that I worked from home one day, and did the majority care at the weekends. And I was the one at home with them every night while the mother was out 3 or 4 nights a week. You might not like that, but that is what happened.

However, you are still making personal attacks about my specific situation.

Why do you feel the need to do this so badly?

It is really interesting to observe.