To ask you to sign our letter to Girlguiding UK?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

IMPORTANT! Deadline 9pm Thursday

We (me and the awesome team at Fair Play For Women and some others) will be publishing an open letter to Girlguiding in a national newspaper this Sunday. We set out the safeguarding concerns with their trans policy that allows a male child who identifies as a girl to share sleeping, dressing and washing facilities with girls, and that parents are not allowed to know. We also highlight that Females who identify as boys are expected to leave, disproportionately impacting lesbian girls.

We are now asking for our supporters to sign the open letter. I obviously need your name - you can PM me with your name, and indicate whether you are a parent, Leader, former member, grandparent, aunty, concerned member of the public etc. OR you can complete the online form here:

fairplayforwomen.com/add-your-name/

We can’t publish the full text of the letter but all the issues are summarised in this factsheet and can be seen in more detail this report.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/FPFWGirlguidess_factsheet.pdf

https://fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/

Spread the word and the link and lets get as many signatures as possible. Girlguiding has made a big misstep with this policy. As a Leader, I don't do this lightly. It's not my intention to embarrass Girlguiding but they MUST listen to our concerns about this policy - concerns shared by legal and child protection experts as well as parents and leaders.

You can read about the Girlguiding policy question here (and click through to the specific guidance on residentials): www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/

Girlguiding's most recent statement on this issue can be read here: www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/coverage-of-equality-diversity-policy/

Je11y
I just worry that the people signing are more worried about excluding using red tape than including kids who are so vulnerable at this moment in their lives.

With the absolute greatest of respect, this is the position I find most infuriating about this whole trans “debate”, that people who talk on this issue, sign letters or petitions are just trying to exclude groups by red tape (implication being through unfounded prejudice/bigotry) or because they haven’t thought it through (implication being uninformed, need education, no critical thinking), or because they’ve been swept up in group-think (implication being hysterical women, easily manipulated).

It’s a single-sex organisation for young people changing its rules without consultation with its membership to allow the opposite sex to join.

The lack of consultation and silencing of critical voices is why I have signed. I have other concerns about how the inclusion of trans children is managed but the lack of transparent consultation is the main one, and why an open letter is necessary.

I was confused as you answered a question I didn't ask you.

Do you see the irony of signing an unseen letter @NoSquirrils when you write, "lack of transparent consultation is the main one, and why an open letter is necessary."

"By law boys can't be female or a girl"

This is really the crux of it. The law needs to change. It was once illegal to be gay too and it's time trans people were recognised properly.

There is nothing illegal about male children not being female children. It's just reality.

Sexuality is not necessarily related to gender identity.

The law may well change but until then GG has to abide by the current law - it can remain single sex under the EqA but it can't then exclude some girls and allow in some boys (while excluding all other boys).

If the law does change in future, will a male body become biologically female (or vice versa) because the person believes so? Does it mean that there will no be a risk of pregnancy if a girl has a sexual relationship with a trans girl?

How people live, how they chose to identify, is no concern of mine. When it comes to GG I need to be able to balance the needs of all children in my care and GG's policies must empower leaders to do just that. I can't prioritise the needs of a trans child over the equally valid needs of another child in every single circumstance. There will be times when the other child's needs are more pressing.

And once again - the exact letter can not be published online before Sunday.

Hundreds of people have seen it and signed it. And I do mean hundreds.

If you're prepared to out yourself to me and give me enough time to verify who you are and confidence that you won't run straight to Pink News or send threats to me on Twitter, then yes, I'll share the exact content with you.

The letter contains the points raised below and the FPFW article sets out my position in great detail - with references and sources.

It was once illegal to be gay too and it's time trans people were recognised properly.

What does proper recognition for children involve, Barbara, and how would that handle the current 80% of GNC children not put on blockers who desist at puberty and grow up LGB? Or the detransitioners who realise that they've made a mistake, but by then they can't reverse the effects of the hormones they've taken?

The transition rate is very high in Iran precisely because it's illegal to be gay there.

Agnes

Yes I should have said that, sexuality and gender id are not the same thing, but without a proper impact assessment, it currently looks like GG, in it's (commendable) attempt to be trans inclusive, may be impacting lesbian girls inadvertently. Lesbian girls are also likely to suffer gender confusion for a time, and often go through a period of great uncertainty, before they reconcile with their birth sex and their sexuality. Any policy for transboys, to stay or leave the organisation, must be sure not unintentionally impact these girls.

@noMincedWords as said many times, the letter is a distillation of the reports FPFW have written, and then summarised in its factsheet. The letter contains absolutely nothing that anyone has not already seen. FPFW have been absolutely transparent about its contents, point by point, without revealing the exact form of words (as we can't, it's an exclusive thing for a national paper). All anyone signing will be doing is supporting those aims precisely as they have already been outlined, the main one being asking GG to suspend the policy pending independent and impartial review.

GirlScout72

Thank you for fighting this for girls and women. It's a tough fight, which I am unable to join actively at the moment but I am grateful to you and gender critical activists like yourself who put themselves out there. You are the suffragettes of our decade and I am in your dept. I have signed your letter.

@NoMincedWords
Do you see the irony of signing an unseen letter @NoSquirrils when you write, "lack of transparent consultation is the main one, and why an open letter is necessary."

Nope, not seeing irony (unless an Alanis Morisette version )

OP has been extremely transparent in posts and information by PM to me (& I expect many others). I’ve said upthread, this particular GG letter is the issue I am willing to adapt my usual behaviour on seeing full text before signing because I am clear that GG needs to consult its members. The ‘open’ letter is ONLY necessary because GG HQ have ignored private attempts to discuss and failed to consult.

If, when the letter is published, it turns out the signatories have been gaslighted and misled, then I’ll be right behind anyone in the uproar that follows.

But, using my own judgement, I can’t see that a 300-word letter has room to misrepresent.

You don’t need to sign, but I did, and in good faith. I’ll stand by that happily.

@SpringUnion

I confess this gives me the heebie jeebies at times, it has its scary moments, but nothing is more important than your rights. And every contribution counts, even chatting to your next door neighbour, or joining in threads on mumsnet.

What people do, how they live, dress, present, who they love, is absolutely no concern of mine. I personally believe 'gender' tells us nothing useful about human beings, and anyone can be anyway they choose, boys and girls alike. However, nowhere in the history of the fight for equal rights for other groups, homosexuals say, or civil rights, did anyone ever demand that I deny reality, nor did those groups get rights by taking them away from another group. All needs and rights need to be fairly balanced.

@balsamicbarbara it is NOT illegal to be trans! The UK has some of the most comprehensive and liberal trans rights in the world. Trans people are protected under law from the moment they first consider themselves trans. They have a legal right to change sex too. However, equality law is there to protect everyone, which is why SEX is a protected characteristic in law too. How these rights interplay is important, but the law makes it clear that having one protected characteristic, does not trump another.

Transgirls already have lots and lots of organisations open to them, females have just one, Girlguides. A boy who is transgender is already protected in law, that law however confers no rights upon him as a female, because females are their own distinct (and disadvantaged) group.

Biological sex is important for all kinds of things, healthcare, pregnancy and maternity rights, equal pay, crime stats. Any change in the law would need to ensure making it easy to change SEX didn't then have negative consequences on other areas.

Maybe the law will change, but the government have already indicated the EA2010 and single sex exemptions won't change, just possibly the GRC process (and even then, there are no plans as far as I know to lower the age at which one can obtain one in England and Wales).

Meanwhile the law is what it is, and GG like every other organisation, has to comply with it.

I have signed this letter, it says nothing that isn't spelt out here by Agnes and Scout.

If you feel you can't sign, that's fine.

I love Girlguiding, I have been involved in and off for over 50 years. It has always been single sex, a space where girls could just be themselves without the pressure of having to conform to the gender roles that society pushes on them. At meetings and residentials we don't worry "does my bum look big in that" or "what will the boys think", we just get on with it. If we want to go crawl through mud during a wide game, we do. If we want to practice diy, we do. If we want to play football, have silly races, practice complicated French plats, we can. We include ALL girls, whatever their home background, religion, culture or educational abilities. Just not boys.

A little bump for the petition to ask to be included in any debate about changing the definition of womanhood - 24 more signatures and it'll hit 10,000 people who agree with that simple request.

(Who'd a thought it'd need a bloody Government petition just to get a seat at the table?!)

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Thanks all for your signatures.

The editor has seen the list but will only publish those that have given a full name (ie first name and surname). So if you've signed as Agnes BP then you won't be included.

We still have hundreds of signatures so although it's disappointing, it's not damaging.

Roll on Sunday!

@AgnesBadenPowell I think I gave initial & surname. Shall I re do the form or is it too late/confusing to have both?

It's too late now I'm afraid. The list of names has been submitted to the paper (then they bloody told me about the name thing!)

It's a shame but thank you offering to go back and re-sign

A solution for signing unseen:

Have a weblink included with the letter to somewhere people can sign after reading ? Linkback can then indicate on the papers webpage how many have signed.

Good luck.

Ah pants! Hopefully i put my full name but i really cant remember & may depend on which auto fill thingy my phone used
Hopefully the article will have open comments

Done

I just signed but have just realised it's too late!

Thanks all. Don't worry if you missed it - we have over 550 signatures that we can use and we are monitoring the subsequent ones.

I am pushing for open comments on the online piece. There were open comments on the last online article I did and it sparked an interesting and calm discussion.

I’ve just signed the petition. So close to 10,000

Fabulous job, Agnes. Thank you for doing this for the girls.

That's disappointing, I gave my initial & surname

Presumably if there are open comments we can all add our signatures in the comments