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Petitions and activism

To ask you to sign our letter to Girlguiding UK?

233 replies

AgnesBadenPowell · 11/04/2018 19:10

IMPORTANT! Deadline 9pm Thursday

We (me and the awesome team at Fair Play For Women and some others) will be publishing an open letter to Girlguiding in a national newspaper this Sunday. We set out the safeguarding concerns with their trans policy that allows a male child who identifies as a girl to share sleeping, dressing and washing facilities with girls, and that parents are not allowed to know. We also highlight that Females who identify as boys are expected to leave, disproportionately impacting lesbian girls.

We are now asking for our supporters to sign the open letter. I obviously need your name - you can PM me with your name, and indicate whether you are a parent, Leader, former member, grandparent, aunty, concerned member of the public etc. OR you can complete the online form here:

fairplayforwomen.com/add-your-name/

We can’t publish the full text of the letter but all the issues are summarised in this factsheet and can be seen in more detail this report.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/FPFWGirlguidess_factsheet.pdf

https://fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/

Spread the word and the link and lets get as many signatures as possible. Girlguiding has made a big misstep with this policy. As a Leader, I don't do this lightly. It's not my intention to embarrass Girlguiding but they MUST listen to our concerns about this policy - concerns shared by legal and child protection experts as well as parents and leaders.

You can read about the Girlguiding policy question here (and click through to the specific guidance on residentials): www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/

Girlguiding's most recent statement on this issue can be read here: www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/coverage-of-equality-diversity-policy/

OP posts:
AgnesBadenPowell · 12/04/2018 20:13

I'd also add that most signatories have seen the letter. These are people known and trusted by the campaigners, who we feel able to share to the full text with, confident that it will not be leaked.

I can't share the full text here, it would pre empt publishing on Sunday.

I have been consistent in my arguments here and on FPFW. If people are not confident then they categorically should not sign. I guarantee that nothing will appear in the letter that hasn't appeared here. I am putting my personal reputation, my job and my position in girlguiding on the line. Anyone here could easily find out who I am. If you think I would do that and still write something inflammatory and transphobic then you do not need to sign.

OP posts:
EasterRobin · 12/04/2018 20:13

Signed.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 12/04/2018 20:20

Just some Gin for AgnesBadenPowell you're doing a grand job

Kbear · 12/04/2018 20:30

Signed - former leader and parent of former Rainbow/Brownie/Guide

fascicle · 12/04/2018 20:47

GirlScout72
From the same document Let’s Talk About Gender and Gender Identity: Advice for Leaders under the heading: What should I do if a young member tells me they do not identify as a girl? :

Reassure them that their gender identity is not a problem and that guiding will continue to support them throughout this time of exploration and, potentially, of change.

The same response is given to the question: What should I do if a young member identifies as non-binary?

Suburban
There is nothing in the policy quote to support the idea that gender non conforming girls will be singled out and excluded. One of the criticisms of the organisation on here is that there is no obligation to share the trans status of a guide with other parents. How does that, coupled with the above quote in response to GirlScout72, tally with singling out and excluding gender non conforming girls? That's in addition to comments in the literature which indicate gender stereotypes should be challenged.

GirlScout72 · 12/04/2018 21:01

@fascile yes it does say that, it also says membership of guides is based on gender ID, and it was published in 2015, BEFORE they did an equality and diversity audit and raitified their trans policy

AND THEN it tells leaders to manage them out.

Oh and check out this gem "Please note: if a child is enjoying activities or expressing themselves in a way that is stereotypically
associated with a gender different to their assigned gender, for example a girl liking rugby, this does not necessarily mean that they are identifying as a different gender or that they are trans.

Then it says:

Membership of Girlguiding is decided based on gender identity. This is understood in terms of the way a person self-identifies their gender identity – a person’s inner sense of self.

And then....
We understand that if a young member is transitioning from female to another gender identity, they
will be experiencing a great amount of change and uncertainty. It may be that they would be better supported in an organisation that is available to all genders. However, flexibility and the Leaders’
discretion, in conversation with the parents, can be used to determine how long the child stays within the unit.

SuburbanRhonda · 12/04/2018 21:04

fascicle

Girl guiding may well continue to support the gnc guide, but did you read this quote from GirlScout72?

PDF download Let’s Talk About Gender and Gender Identity: Advice for Leaders states: “at the right time, you may wish to begin to work with the young member [who identifies as a boy] to find another organisation that may better support their needs, for example an organisation open to all genders”. (2015)

So that’s the exclusion bit, and in the same quote, the bit about “beginning work” with a gnc guide makes it clear that they will be singled out for discussions that will lead to their exclusion.

LiquoriceTea · 12/04/2018 21:05

So I should basically pull my girls out of the guide movement as they like things that are not stereotypically female (and I thought guiding was a good female environment to camp and cook outdoors etc.)

It seems they think guiding should be stereotypically female . Great pink fluffy craft s and lots of make up is the future :(

GirlScout72 · 12/04/2018 21:07

@fascile how does 'gender identity' fit with equality act exemptions for single characteristic associations (schedule 16) - does it confer rights on a boy who identifies as a girl to be treated as the female sex?

It doesn't.

The point is, this policy is unlawful. They aren't allowed to do it.

They either need to be mixed sex and allow in all boys, not just boys with the characteristic of gender reassignment.

or they need to be single sex, which means keeping girls with the characteristic of gender reassignment.

In trying to 'man please' they've broken the law and the Royal Charter.

ferntwist · 12/04/2018 23:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

AgnesBadenPowell · 12/04/2018 23:41

We certainly have reason to believe that GG are unwittingly breaching the Equality Act 2010. Leaders like me have tried and tried to engage GGUK in a dialogue about this for over a year - to no avail. The policy must be suspended pending a full review to protect all children and adults within the organisation.

OP posts:
Je11y · 12/04/2018 23:53

Sorry can’t sign this. I believe trans kids should have the rights to the gender of their choice and the guides website policy says nothing about getting rid of lesbians.
Simply boiled down it says that trans kids will be supported by guides to the best of their ability with the empathy that they deserve. I would hope that my daughter would have empathy with these kids at such a difficult time in their lives.
Reread the promise page if you are uncertain of what you or your daughters promised when you joined.

MipMipMip · 13/04/2018 00:01

I believe a public letter is the right way to go. A lot of this is happening because people don't know - they have very broad outline (all trans have body dismorphia and have surgery etc) so believe anyone who knows more is automatically being biased if they object. Greater knowledge all round will bring a change of attitude I think.

I'm not saying everyone who knows more think a things are wrong btw, just that a lot of people are uninformed and their opinions may well be different if they knew more.

GirlScout72 · 13/04/2018 00:26

Je11y

Then they need to inform the charity commission, update their governing document, and go mixed sex. There's no way to do as you say AND stay girl only. The law doesn't allow for that. The law describes a woman in the Equality Act as a FEMALE of any age.

The only way to change your legal sex is with a GRC. Children can't get a GRC until they are 18, but usually much older as it's a serious step. Boys who identify as girls are legally male, therefore they can't join a girl only association. Only a transwoman with a GRC could legally join guides a leader - for kids, their legal sex is what it says on their birth certificate.

Nobody lacks empathy for boys who are transgender, I just don't see why it's really the job of a female only association and it's female members to solve? We are asking GG to review this policy and work it out, as it's in a right old muddle as it is. Meanwhile there's lots of mixed sex groups a transgirl could join.

Nothing to do with lacking empathy. Plus I feel empathy for girls too (and the poor leaders trying to make head or tail of this policy 'on the ground' - it's unworkable is what leaders are telling us.).

Most girls who identify as boys are lesbian, 95% in fact. Given 80% of all children who start out as transgender come to realise they are not, and many end up just being gay or lesbian, the policy of managing out 'transboys' disproportionately affects same sex attracted girls.

Plus, as I've been pondering, I wonder what GG tell girls a lesbian actually is, seeing as they are now saying gender identity is what defines whether you are a boy or girl? And there's a spectrum between male and female? Sexual orientation is protected in law as a same sex attraction, it has a very specific meaning.

These things matter, words matter, as they are what all of our equality rights are based on.

They need to get impartial advice, legal advice, seek the advice of the charity commission (and the privy council if it affects their charter) and then decide.

Je11y · 13/04/2018 00:40

Girlscout72.

Fair enough. Maybe they do need to cover themselves legally before promising such a wide reaching equal opportunities trans approach. I just worry that the people signing are more worried about excluding using red tape than including kids who are so vulnerable at this moment in their lives.
At best they simply join the scouts who have happily included all children in their troops, at worst they take this rejection to the point of taking their own lives. Neither of these scenarios reflect well on guides. Neither does a very public letter declaring your opposition to their policy.

LiquoriceTea · 13/04/2018 03:20

Je11y. It's not inclusion - their policy manages out girls who may feel they identify as a different gender. This wants them included!

LiquoriceTea · 13/04/2018 03:21

(Unless its more important to include born boys who are questioning and have a ton of other mixed groups they could go to, than ve a safe space born woman can question without worry they will be chucked out if not stereotypically girly enough.)

noMincedWords · 13/04/2018 05:25

No @LiquoriceTea , you're inventing a whole issue.

to determine how long the child stays within the unit. doesn't for a second suggest that the length of time the child stays should be limited or curtailed against their wishes.

The length of time could be until the child is too old for GG.

HappyNew · 13/04/2018 05:33

"at worst they take this rejection to the point of taking their own lives"

This is a horrible thing to say. Where do you stop? This is emotional blackmail is similar to saying that a lesbian girl is responsible for the potential distress and worse of the selfIDed male 'girl' she refuses to have sex with Shock Please stop blaming girls and women's groups for not placidly going along with what a handful of males long for.

You could equally say that a girl who comes home pregnant from camp holiday aged 14 or who has been sexually abused by a male guide leader is pushed " to the point of taking their own lives" because of SelfID policies. Hmm

I hate this emotional bm.

HappyNew · 13/04/2018 05:44

The dangers of teenage pregnancy is one logical outcome of trans 'girls' having 'lesbian'relationships' (outrageous, homophobic notion btw) with biological girls. After all, if ideology dictates that trans 'girls' are to be treated by law and social dictate as biological girls in GG, single sex schools etc, 'lesbian sex' with trans girls (obvs there is no such thing) should be save, with zero risk of pregnancy. It follows that there ought to be, no need for condoms or other birth control which the lesbian girl doesn't need to worry about any way because the penis is just an over sized clitoris. Hmm

HappyNew · 13/04/2018 05:54

Self ID politics will result in girls who insist on birth control when having sex with self IDed trans 'girls' being accused of committing a hate crime for allegedly discriminating against the 'trans girl'. This ideology forces us to pretend that we magically won't get pregnant because how could a girl / women get anyone pregnant?

^This will be a great way to manipulate especially inexperienced and vulnerable girls and push them into engaging in unsafe sex resulting in STD and unwanted pregnancies. Great stuff for girls and women!!!

After all any birth control will be seen as transphobic by definition.

HappyNew · 13/04/2018 08:15

I wonder what the courts will have to say where a teenage girl gets pregnant as a result of GG"s half baked and appeasing gender ID policy and the family decide to sue e.g. for the impact on their daughter's education, loss in potential earnings resulting from not being able to study at university due to unplanned pregnancy etc. etc.

All just because GG want to appease a tiny subset of boys and men. I am looking forward to reading the article OP.

GirlScout72 · 13/04/2018 08:38

@noMincedWords please read my previous posts, indirect discrimination is when something unfairly impacts one group inadvertently. I've no doubt GG are well intentioned and transboys may well want to leave, but GG say in more than one place that leaders need to work with the transboy (ie females) to find them somewhere else to go. They may well want to go anyway, and that's fine, but they should not be asked to leave, or indirectly pressured to leave. As the majority of kids identifying as trans are girls (by the tavistock's own data) and 95% are same sex attracted, and 80% of all trans kids CHANGE THEIR MIND, with most ending up LBG and not T (Polly Carmichael says that herself) it does impact lesbian girls unfairly.

The other thing you need to think about, is by admitting male children, and regardless of how they identify transgirls are legally male and male bodied, girls from different religious and cultural backgrounds are also disproportionately affected - partic in very conservative communities, there could be serious consequences for these girls if it's later found out they shared washing or sleeping facilities with a boy, and her 'honour' is thought to have been sullied. That, if GG isn't careful, is also an EA2010 breach for indirect discrimination and GG, if it wants these girls to have a safe place to go to develop themselves, free from stereotypes, needs to think about what consequences it could be subjecting these girls to. It's not good enough to say, as GG have done, 'they are free not to join' as girls from very conservative religious backgrounds have so few places they are permitted to go, as they are not allowed to mix with boys. Are we really saying to those girls, never mind, your life can shrink to the size of a postage stamp, when in the next breath GG says it's all about overcoming gendered stereotypes that harm girls?

@Je11y if you drill down into the data, e.g. the latest stonewall study on suicide and look at the numbers by SEX not gender ID, guess who is self harming, feeling suicidal and attempting suicide? It's FEMALES. This compares with other studies looking at the levels of anxiety, self harm and mental distress in GIRLS.

GIRLS are having a crisis. Surely it's GG's remit to support these girls.

And what about the feelings of the girls themselves, are we also saying that their boundaries, dignity, privacy, modesty, and ability to perceive reality correctly don't matter? I think those things are crucial to developing self esteem and to teaching girls to have healthy boundaries that keep them safe.

GG need to suspend the policy, and do a full and impartial impact assessment, looking at how this policy impacts the rights of everyone, particularly focusing on the protected characteristics of sex, gender reassignment, sexual orientation and religious belief. Bear in mind also that the law quite clearly says that sometimes the fairest thing to do is NOT treat everyone the same. Transgirls have needs, no one is doubting that, but is an organistion set up for females only, that has successfully been female only for over a century, the place for them? That's what they need to look at and then decide their policy.

noMincedWords · 13/04/2018 08:48

@GirlScout72

Are you also LiquoriceTea on this thread?

Why do you capitalise GIRLS and FEMALES?

GirlScout72 · 13/04/2018 08:51

@noMincedWords

Nope, I only have one profile on mumsnet, and for EMPHASIS, as I hate the fiddly way you have to do it otherwise, and often get it wrong (asterisks etc)

Girls and Females have a particular meaning in law. By law boys can't be female or a girl. And as I keep saying, that is important, as equality legislation protects all of our rights.