To ask you to sign our letter to Girlguiding UK?

[AgnesBadenPowell]

IMPORTANT! Deadline 9pm Thursday

We (me and the awesome team at Fair Play For Women and some others) will be publishing an open letter to Girlguiding in a national newspaper this Sunday. We set out the safeguarding concerns with their trans policy that allows a male child who identifies as a girl to share sleeping, dressing and washing facilities with girls, and that parents are not allowed to know. We also highlight that Females who identify as boys are expected to leave, disproportionately impacting lesbian girls.

We are now asking for our supporters to sign the open letter. I obviously need your name - you can PM me with your name, and indicate whether you are a parent, Leader, former member, grandparent, aunty, concerned member of the public etc. OR you can complete the online form here:

fairplayforwomen.com/add-your-name/

We can’t publish the full text of the letter but all the issues are summarised in this factsheet and can be seen in more detail this report.

https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/FPFWGirlguidess_factsheet.pdf

https://fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/

Spread the word and the link and lets get as many signatures as possible. Girlguiding has made a big misstep with this policy. As a Leader, I don't do this lightly. It's not my intention to embarrass Girlguiding but they MUST listen to our concerns about this policy - concerns shared by legal and child protection experts as well as parents and leaders.

You can read about the Girlguiding policy question here (and click through to the specific guidance on residentials): www.girlguiding.org.uk/making-guiding-happen/policies/girlguiding-policies/equality-and-diversity-policy/transgender-gender-reassignment/

Girlguiding's most recent statement on this issue can be read here: www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/coverage-of-equality-diversity-policy/

the signatories didn't have the opportunity or intelligence to read the letter before adding their name?

I’m going to sign because, like the others who have signed having heard and agreed with the arguments outlined in the OP, I am seriously lacking in intelligence

Signed. Because I agree with Fair Play For Women.

I don't need to explain myself or my actions to beyondlivid but I suggest that you look up the meaning of unethical.

@SuburbanRhonda

Yes. Clearly.

Do you usually sign things before reading them?
When you see signatories to an open letter, do you assume that they have read it first?

Do you think the paper will be embarrassed if the letter is published and they discover that those who signed it couldn't read it? I think they will. It undermines the entire point of the letter and I think this thread will seriously damage the credibility of anything the OP hoped to achieve.

//-----

A: "Would you sign this?"

B: "Can I read it?"

A: "No"

B: "Piss off then! I'm not an idiot."

A: "It's about keeping the trans out."

B: "Oh. Do you have a pen?"

Actually beyondBeyondLivid it's about keeping the girls who are 'trans' in. Why do you think transgirls (boys) are more important than transboys (girls)?

beyond

You might want to look up the meaning of sarcasm while you’ve got your dictionary out.

Signed.

I've read the FPFW site & the OP's posts on here & am happy to trust that I know what the points made in the letter will be, & that I agree.

If it turns out that she goes massively off piste & the letter is not as she has represented it, I'm sure the signatories, myself included, would be perfectly capable of pointing this out.

I'm sure OP is fully aware of that & that her letter is written in good faith; anything else would be a huge open goal.

Good luck with it OP. I'm not currently in the UK or I'd be signing dd1 up for GG. She would love a 'girls only' space to do fun, challenging stuff. If she were the sort to flourish in a mixed environment - like dd2 - I'd be sending her to Scouts. GG needs to stay single sex.

@Waddlelikeapenguin

How do you know? You haven't seen the letter.

I don't think that any one group's rights trump another. I agree with the guide whose mother posted basically saying, she doesn't care.

All of this essentially comes down to some people (the minority, apparently) telling another group that they should be worried and if they aren't it's because they aren't intelligent / mature / well read enough to understand that they should be worried.

@SuburbanRhonda

Where were you sarcastic?

I have no idea what point you're trying to make.

Why did you ignore the three questions I asked? They weren't leading and I believe they were pertinent. They're closed questions so don't even take effort to answer, although I'd be delighted if you expanded on your answers.

Do you usually sign things before reading them?

When you see signatories to an open letter, do you assume that they have read it first?

Do you think the paper will be embarrassed if the letter is published and they discover that those who signed it couldn't read it?

Signed.

I appreciate how difficult this is. I would rather publish the text here - but if I do it won't get published.

I am asking for signatures, not demanding them. I have several other threads on this subject, running into 1500+ posts discussing this issue. My position has been clear and consistent. Our full position (and a summary version) are on the Fair Play For Women website.

The letter covers these points, all of which have been discussed at length here and on the FPFW articles:

• GG being historically all female
• trans girls (mtf) are still biologically Male in law and in fact
• safeguarding concerns around Male and female children sharing accommodation without the girls or their parents consent
• exclusion of gender non conforming girls
• reinforcement of gender stereotypes - redefining girl as "an inner sense"

If you have no wish to sign without seeing the full text, then I understand completely. No one is under any obligation to sign anything.

I'm posting here because a number of Mumsnetters were concerned and wanted to know what they could do to help. I'm not asking strangers in the street - I'm appealing to members of a forum who are likely already aware of this issue from other threads and asking them to help if they feel able.

All of this essentially comes down to some people (the minority, apparently) telling another group that they should be worried and if they aren't it's because they aren't intelligent / mature / well read enough to understand that they should be worried.

Not in the case of these GG threads. I think the OP has been extremely clear about the issue.

GG is single-sex. It upholds this distinction under the Equalities Act.
If it wishes to change, it needs to consult its members. I have signed on this basis alone, regardless of any 'wider' opinions.

Do you usually sign things before reading them?
Yes

When you see signatories to an open letter, do you assume that they have read it first?
Yes

Do you think the paper will be embarrassed if the letter is published and they discover that those who signed it couldn't read it?
No. Because the paper placed the restriction. And is probably following these threads, anyway. OP could ask the paper, I guess - but as they have allowed Fair Play For Women to put it on their website and allow 'signatures' then I assume they think it is OK.

I trust the OP that there isn't a blatant transphobic lie slipped in on page 2 of the letter, or whatever. It would undermine her cause. I have followed all these threads and whilst I would usually wish to read a full text of the letter, in this single instance, I am prepared to put my name to it.

No need for you to, but also no need for you to name-call anyone or insult their intelligence.

Signed as a former guide who would of been chucked out with these new guidelines. As I don't have a gender, just a biological sex.

I think my links in the OP got a bit garbled so I'll try again!

Here is the link to our full position (it's long!): https://fairplayforwomen.com/guide-leaders-call-for-halt/

And here is a summary factsheet: https://fairplayforwomen.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/FPFWGirlguidess_factsheet.pdf

A rainbow leader (not me) on why she's joined the sisters to all campaign https://fairplayforwomen.com/sisters-to-all-guides-read-this-passionate-response-to-our-campaign-by-this-ex-rainbows-leader/

A difficult to read report on the scale of child on child sexual abuse. The risk of anything happening between a male and female child on a camp etc., is small. But the consequences are devastating for both the children involved and their families. We must acknowledge the risk (indeed, GG does when it comes to the male children of leaders attending camps) and manage it responsibly: https://fairplayforwomen.com/factsnott_fairytales/

Girlguiding's most recent statement: https://www.girlguiding.org.uk/what-we-do/our-stories-and-news/news/coverage-of-equality-diversity-policy/

Interesting quote in your last link, OP:

A Girlguiding volunteer leader shared their thoughts with us this week;
All they want to do is 'be'. They aren't sexual predators or con artists; they are simply children.

Shame they don’t apply the same compassion and understanding to girl guides who identify as boys.

@SuburbanRhonda I know. It's sad and actually downright cruel to abandon gender non conforming girls like this. GG bangs on about how inclusive it is but it's not. It's only inclusive if you conform.

I am a Guider and I am signing with my real name (Guider).

My biggest issue is also them asking us to "manage out" girls who identify as boys, which for the vast vast majority of them will be temporary.
I have a friend whose daughter identified for about a year as a boy. She lost a coveted secondary school place over this, and is now back as a girl. She also has ASD. Absolutely classic case of a girl who GG would want to leave, and a huge statement that GG doesn't care about trans equality, or disability rights.

It's hard to take anyone seriously who says they often sign before reading. Especially when it's contrary to you expecting signatories to have read what they've signed. A bit of a face-palm moment!

the paper placed the restriction

I didn't see this mentioned by the OP

no need for you to name-call anyone or insult their intelligence

Anyone who puts their name to something without reading it is an idiot. Taught to me by my late father and something I'll never be dissuaded of (about?)!

I also think it’s completely disingenuous to use the line “they’re just children” to make anyone who wants to uphold safeguarding standards sound like some filthy old pervert who only sees children as sexual beings.

We have a service in our LA which works exclusively to support children who display sexually inappropriate behaviour towards other children. There is a waiting list for their service.

I have signed. I have particular worries that the guidance includes male children without safeguards, yet excludes female children who say they are the opposite sex. Surely if they were serious, they would not be in the GG in the first place. The fact that they contemplate, even in theory, excluding a gender non conforming girl makes a complete mockery of all they say about inclusion and anything they have ever said about being a place where girls can blossom.

To clarify, most signatories have seen the letter. They are known to me personally or by people I know and trust. The agree with our aims and agreed to keep the letter contents confidential until Sunday.

I can't publish the contents online (ie here) because then the paper loses its exclusivity and won't go ahead. It's a catch 22 for us but we do have lots of signatories who have seen the full letter so on balance it's better for us to keep it confidential to guarantee publication.

The aim of this thread was to raise awareness and ask for signatures, if you feel able to do so. I've been clear and consistent and for some people that's enough. It's not for others.

I would also say that I am NOT anonymous. It will take you five seconds to work out my real name and find a photo of me from another newspaper article. I am putting my reputation on the line by doing this, within Girlguiding and outside. I've not had too much bother so far but I have been harassed by certain extreme trans rights groups. It would not be in my interest to publish anything inflammatory or untrue.

OP, I for one am very grateful that you’ve put your neck on the line over this issue.

I don't usually comment on Trans threads but as someone who works with teens and has teens I would just say that most kids I teach don't have an issue with trans and particularly girls. Curiosity yes but fear no. These are a generation who, mostly, have no LGB hang ups at all.

They don't seem to have it in them to think that a boy would pretend to be a girl just so they could sexually abuse them, thank goodness. Teenage boys who are trans have bigger things on their mind.

I bet this is a daily fail article.

Agnes can you clarify how the policy relates to over 18s please - both senior section members and Leaders? Thank you

Thank you so much for Doing this.

Is there any way to sign where I don't reveal my last name? It's pretty unusual in this country.

I don't think trans girls are sexual predators that seems to be the argument used by people who don't realise that being forced to lie is harmful and girls are stereotypes out of doing enough as it is without having to reinforce these stereotypes to appease boys and men.

Signed.

I've read the FPFW site & the OP's posts on here & am happy to trust that I know what the points made in the letter will be, & that I agree.

GG Should be single sex. Trans inclusion should apply to trans identified females so that girls can identity as whatever gender they wish and still feel included in GG.