AIBU to think you should sign this petition to ask the government to consult with women about Self ID?

[MIngerDynasty]

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

Your details remain private, I don't want to start yet another trans thread but I thnk we can all agree that there needs to be more discussion with the people affected by the changes in law!

I haven't said anything about what I think about it Lang, just that it won't change if self-ID is brought in.

@NoSquirrels yes, I cross-posted with your post, I see what you mean. I don't know though if hitching that concern about the societal changes to the issue of self-ID is the most effective way of addressing that though. Perhaps it is - I mean it's certainly getting the message out there, but I wonder if conflating the two is perhaps casting a shadow over the cause?

Yep @Rat, I think we are broadly in agreement that the GRC is not exactly the issue - and it does seem extremely "mean" to deny trans people an "easier" way to go about getting one.

But why do they "need" an "easier way"? What is so troubling about having the courage of your convictions to go through the process to gain a GRC if you think it will benefit you. Why shouldn't you have to prove that you are committed to changing and living your life in the opposite sex?

For instance, Paris Lees, who is one of the most outspoken and well recognised campaigning trans women doesn't have a GRC. She doesn't need one.

So it is a choice to obtain one - you can happily live without one as your chosen gender.

But if you really need/want one, then why not have to jump through the hoops required.

It's a serious business and it seems right to me that limits are in place.

If it's not considered "demeaning" for a woman to require 2 medical opinions for an abortion to be performed, then it's not "demeaning" for a man to require 2 medical opinions to be recognised as a woman.

If it is a medical issue - dysphoria, the feeling of not conforming to your birth sex - then it requires a medical process.

If it is not a medical issue - biological sex is no longer important to anyone, it's all about how you feel inside - then I would like someone to clearly explain the reasoning behind why biological sex is no longer important. With reasoning and facts and figures I can understand and interpret to reach an informed opinion.

This give a really good information on the issues involved

fairplayforwomen.com

But why do they "need" an "easier way"?

I don't know, but that's what Maria Miller's advisory board recommended, so I'm assuming that's come from feedback from the trans community's representatives? FWIW I think some hoops are good, I just don't at this point know what I think would be reasonable.

So it is a choice to obtain one - you can happily live without one as your chosen gender.

Certainly some people can live happily, but as Paris is happy to be known as trans I can see why it wouldn't bother her. It's the people for whom their birth sex is a painful memory that they've done an awful lot to distance themselves from who would be compelled to seek a GRC. It seems harsh that they are the ones - having already been the ones to jump through all the hoops - are the only ones who'd have to jump through more.

Jayceedove made a good suggestion I think, of a "provisional" sort of GRC. Maybe that should be harder to get, but when you've had that for however long it's fairly easy to progress because you've clearly already put the work in?

If it's not considered "demeaning" for a woman to require 2 medical opinions for an abortion to be performed, then it's not "demeaning" for a man to require 2 medical opinions to be recognised as a woman.

I was thinking about the abortion thing last night; I don't have experience but isn't it tantamount to a formality, but it's retained as something that can be invoked to protect vulnerable women who might be being pressurised into an abortion? Happy to be corrected.

"Rat, that doesn't reassure me (I wish it did!) It makes me want to tighten up current protections TBH"

That's why nobody wants this debated. Once self id is questioned, so are various policies, for example men being placed in female wards without a GRC. And this leads people to look at the GRC itself.

Jayceedove made a good suggestion I think, of a "provisional" sort of GRC. Maybe that should be harder to get, but when you've had that for however long it's fairly easy to progress because you've clearly already put the work in?

...to progress from a provisional GRC to a "full" GRC I mean to say.

A tiny thing people can do today: I've just searched "petition gender identity" and then liked every single post that linked it. Little bit of networking (I've had so many new followers in the last few days, and found loads of new accounts to follow too)

SIgned.

Along the lines of abortion, I found another interesting parallel recently.

If a person approaches a gp saying they are trans, the gp has to refer them to a specialist, regardless of personal views (I was doing gender specialty training re medical care)

Whereas a doctor can refuse to refer for an abortion, and a pharmacist can even refuse to prescribe the MAP!

All the points on my original post ARE already happening. This is true.

I find it terrifying. And I think a wider debate is needed to bring it to the public’s attention.

I am under no illusion that, even with more of a spotlight on this issue, there are whole swathes of society who either wont care or won’t be brave enough to stand up and say something on the matter. But that’s not a good enough reason for me/us to stay silent on the issue.

We have to be able to say ‘look, this is already happening , the culture is shifting, it’s about to be enshrined in law....are you happy about this?’

That's why nobody wants this debated. Once self id is questioned, so are various policies, for example men being placed in female wards without a GRC. And this leads people to look at the GRC itself.

I think you're right LostArt, I've thought as much myself.

Unfortunately I think that might be the point at which many people switch off; the idea of dialling back where things are already, either in law or in the way society treats transpeople, is problematic for the conscience. Not saying it's not justifiable, just that it makes people ask very difficult questions that they're probably happy to consider "fait a complit".

I think better to propose new safeguards and protections than to remove liberties, if you see what I mean. That tends to go down better in public thinking.

Signed

Double standards shouldn't surprise anyone

Signed.... regardless of personal views I see no reason to not have an open debate on something as important and emotive as this.

I like the idea of a "provisional" GRC.

I was thinking about the abortion thing last night; I don't have experience but isn't it tantamount to a formality, but it's retained as something that can be invoked to protect vulnerable women who might be being pressurised into an abortion? Happy to be corrected

But that's why the 2 doctors are also needed for GRC, presumably? So that there is clear agreement that this is a medical need for a vulnerable individual, and not being coerced.

In terms of abortion, it's not a formality - you absolutely do need 2 doctors to agree. In practise for the vast majority of people that is their GP and then a doctor at the abortion clinic. But GPs can opt out if it is against their personal morals, and instead refer to someone else. I assume the same would be true of 2 doctors for a GRC - if you have been transitioning you will have access to 2 doctors who have helped you - GP plus whatever clinic - so it's also 'tantamount to a formality'? And if your GP is gender critical or not supportive of transitioning gender - which is the argument I hear around this the most - I don't know why that's different to a pro-life GP refusing to refer for abortion?

@BeyondDeadly - X-post. That's interesting.

The double standards bit was on BeyondDeadlySiren 's post

But that's why the 2 doctors are also needed for GRC, presumably? So that there is clear agreement that this is a medical need for a vulnerable individual, and not being coerced.

That's a really good point. One of the transwomen on here (can't remember who) did say something that made me think self-ID might be a bit of a cynical move on the part of the government to provide less medical engagement to those wishing to transition.

That is interesting Beyond! I wonder why, if it's something to do with overcoming stigma or something?

Congratulations on signing up,person in D&G💐

One of the transwomen on here (can't remember who) did say something that made me think self-ID might be a bit of a cynical move on the part of the government to provide less medical engagement to those wishing to transition.

In her speech on this, Theresa May said trans is not a medical condition. I think the Trans Rights Activists are VERY naive not to be concerned by this. Of course the Tories will slash funding for their surgery if they can.

so I'm assuming that's come from feedback from the trans community's representatives?

I think we need to question who the "trans" community's representatives are though. I don't think anyone asked Miranda Yardley. As long as trans included anyone and everyone ( I most certainly fit the category of "agender") I don't think we can accept it unquestioningly.

The ATH lot are very unlikely to get their free leg waxing on the nhs from Teresa May (or anyone else for that matter)

Bump for Danielle

I prefer Danielle's International Women's Day tweet to women.

*If a person approaches a gp saying they are trans, the gp has to refer them to a specialist, regardless of personal views (I was doing gender specialty training re medical care)

Whereas a doctor can refuse to refer for an abortion, and a pharmacist can even refuse to prescribe the MAP!*

Not to mention the women who want to be sterilised for genuine medical reasons, or simply because they are done having children/don't want children but are refused because they might change their mind later.

Yet if a woman goes to the gp saying they are trans and want to have gender reassignment surgery then it's all systems go