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Pedants' corner

H "atich" and "haitch" - please explain!

262 replies

coppit · 18/01/2010 22:14

So, the letter H...

"aitch" and "haitch" - are both correct (so you just pronounce it how you like) or is "haitch" actually incorrect.

Thanks!

OP posts:
prettybird · 20/01/2010 16:52

Bu Sasamaxx - I'm Scottish too!

sasamaxx · 20/01/2010 17:14

Prettybird - ah - so where are you from then?
And how does 'witch' differ from 'which' round your way?

prettybird · 20/01/2010 17:29

I'm "posh" Glasgow.

The "wh" in "which" or "where" is slightly more aspirated than "w" in "witch" or "wear".

My classmates at my (state) primary school (admittdely a long time ago )spoke the same way - I can remember us not understanding the relevance of the tongue twister "which witch is which?" as it was obvious !

MumsieNonna · 20/01/2010 17:37

Absolutely fascinating information in this thread. Thank you for your input.

Can anyone explain why so many people in England mispronounce the word 'jewellery' (jewelry US spelling)?

They often say Jew-ler-ree. I even hear it on the BBC sometimes and it makes me wince (for a wobbly-nano-second).

BTW, MumsieNonna will be correcting the GD1 if she ever dares to say 'haitch'!

sasamaxx · 20/01/2010 17:51

Ahhh - I'm from Glasgow too but am afraid I don't really know what 'posh' Glasgow is.... Does it just mean 'non-ned'??

prettybird · 20/01/2010 17:57

No - it just means that, according to my dh, I am not really Glaswegian, as I was brought up outside the city boundary (Milngavie/Bearsden).

Now safely ensconced on the south side (Pollokshields)

sasamaxx · 20/01/2010 18:09

Ah right.
i've lived in Pollokshields (Pollockshields ) before.
I'm from the South Side (grew up in Newlands) but now live out in the sticks.

Glasgow has some absolutely fantastic accents and vocabulary - such an interesting mix of people and culture - lots of interesting sociolinguistic features

sasamaxx · 20/01/2010 18:10

I just said 'interesting' twice

MeAndMyMonkey · 20/01/2010 18:34

It's 'aitch'.
I know this thread has moved on to more interesting linguistic ground but I honestly , honestly thought that the only people who said 'haitch' were cockneys. What an education.
Btw has anyone ever heard Covent Garden (for example) pronounced 'Cuh-vent Garden'? is this a posh thing or just an accentricity?

prettybird · 20/01/2010 18:50

sasamaxx. Used to live in Shawlands when I first moved in with dh and would regularly go running in Newlands.

I call myself a Glasgow "snob" (at least accent wise) as despite living here most of my life, I still have difficulty understanding some of the "broader" accents.

Although I was across in Iceland last week, where they are apparently real Taggart fans and dh and I had to say that the accents you hear on that really aren't that broad! . I mean, they broadcast it in England without subtitles!

ChocolateMoose · 20/01/2010 19:20

Sasamaxx - so would you say 'an history' or 'a history'? Are you saying it's because the accent isn't on the first syllable in 'historical'? Can't think of any other words beginning with h for which that is the case except hysterical.

TiggyR · 20/01/2010 20:25

Mathanxiety, I'm sorry but I don't get your argument at all. I agree that, in many things, there is no right or wrong, just commonly adhered to habits that depend on what class or region you are from, (like toilet v lavatory) but this is just a word that is spelt with an A for crying out loud! How in God's name can it be right to pronounce it with a 'h' sound at the beginning?! It's nothing to do with snobbery or class to point out that it's wrong!

sasamaxx · 20/01/2010 20:49

Prettybird - I used to go running in Newlands too ... and down to Pollokshaws, through Thornliebank, Kennishead, through to the Pollok Centre and back home again - it was quite good in that I whenever I felt like I was about to die, I would pass some dodgy-looking youths and discover I could quite easily break into a sprint .
This would happen frequently in said areas lol.

Agree about Taggart!

chocolatemoose I don't think it was actually me who was discussing 'historical'...

However FWIW I would say it's
'An historical speech' and
'A history of ...'

PrincessFiorimonde · 20/01/2010 22:16

Loving this thread.

The only people I've met who said 'haitch' have been Irish. (Apart from me, when I want to wind up DP.)

But 'an historian/historical'. Really? I'm a copy-editor, and I just would not allow that. I've never heard anyone pronounce the word without the 'h'. So I've learned something here today. (Still won't allow it in text, though.)

Isn't the 'happle/hegg' example cited by someone earlier on this thread an instance of Dickensian prole-speak?

But what do I know? My mother said 'etch' for 'h'. Though she was foreign...

TiggyR · 20/01/2010 22:36

This thread reminds me of something all three of my children have done. Having mixed with other children who routinely say 'fanks for finking of me' and having had it drummed into them from an early age NOT to do the same, they have all described the hard of hearing as 'a bit death'!!!!

mathanxiety · 20/01/2010 23:26

Is it actually a word? There are sizeable parts of the world where Haitch is standard, and judging by comments here and on this thread, it seems to be colonising rapidly.

TiggyR · 21/01/2010 07:48

So, on the basis that there are thousands (probably millions) of people who wrongly say 'should of' and would of' and these days there is a commonly held attitude (among some people like you) that to correct someone's grammar, spelling or punctuation is to pull class rank, should we do away with the word 'have'?

How about we just adopt a total freestyle system whereby anyone can say/spell/punctuate as they wish, and it must be regognised as a bone fide human right for them to be right on the basis that they think they are? Will it soon be illegal to expect someone to have a basic standard of written English before you offer them a job?

Language has its rules and its patterns so that we my understand it, and one another, and not misunderstand one another. I'll grant you English is a tricky bugger, but if we cease to care about getting it right then soon we'll all be living through our own 'fork 'andles' farce on a daily basis.

frakkinaround · 21/01/2010 08:50

Should of, would of NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

It was me discussing historical - I would also say 'an hysterical woman' but would say 'a history'. My guess/theory is that it's to do with the accent on the second syllable and not the first but I have no proof of that, other than trial and error of what I say. If you search book titles a suprising number are 'an historian' - I just googled 'a historian' and 'an historian' for comparison and it still seems to be allowed. Google even tells you when you put in 'a historian' to try 'a history'.

"Essayez avec cette orthographe : a history"

TiggyR · 21/01/2010 09:17

That should be reCognised obviously. Just thought I'd point out my mistake before some tat-for-tat point-scorer thinks they can trash my argument just because I am human and occasionally make typos!

IsItMeOr · 21/01/2010 09:32

A bit shocked this thread is still going.

But you go TiggyR!

mathanxiety - I am feeling a tiny bit disappointed that I suspect you may be right that Haitch is colonising, and in a few years OED will recognise both ways as correct. Language evolves...

But for now...it's aitch!

TiggyR · 21/01/2010 09:43

Language evolves, yes, but the basic tenets of grammar, punctuation and spelling remain largely the same, for good reason. (Please no-one start quoting olde English at me!) If we are to recognise Haitch then by default we should also start to refer to all these letters as the following:

F should now be referred to as FEF
L = LEL
M = MEM
N = NEN
R = RAR
S = SES
W = wubble-yew
X = ZEX or even kzex!!!
Y = Y-eye
^,
Why on earth not? Surely, not to do so makes a mockery of the case for Haitch?

IsItMeOr · 21/01/2010 10:23

I'm not a language expert TiggyR, so all I was thinking of is that when usage of a new word becomes so common, it seems to eventually make it's way into the OED. Plus, I thought some things that were totally unacceptable in terms of grammar in the past are now acceptable (although not popular with some), e.g. split infinitives and starting a sentence with "And".

TiggyR · 21/01/2010 10:53

IsItMeOr, I am no expert either, and yes, I agree, and that's why I said the basic tenets 'remain largely the same'. I think we have just settled into a less formal, less proscriptive way of grammar and syntax, nevertheless there are limits, and lows to which some us refuse to sink, such as 'we was' and 'I done'. If we allow ourselves to become too casual our language will cease to make any sense at all.

However, in this instance I do feel strongly that the root of the 'haitch' problem lies firmly in the wrongly held assumption that people who say 'aitch' are dropping the 'h' sound, and are therefore being a bit common. They say 'haitch' because they think that to do so is to speak 'nicely'. There's no shame in it - to try to get something right (even if you are misguided) is a good thing. So many people do drop their aitches that it is a perfectly understandable error to make - but still wrong! So no need for people to get all shirty and defensive and play the race/region/class/privilege(or lack of)card when it's pointed out to them.

Hypothetically, if certain socio-economic/regional groups habitually dropped, let's say, their Ms, then people who wish to speak well, and sound educated would no doubt refer to an M as a MEM. It's common misunderstanding, that's all, and no grounds for changing the entry in the OED, any more than it would be right to change the word specific to pacific, just because a significant percentage of the population can't seem to get to grips with it! Where do we stop?

lovelycoffee · 21/01/2010 11:20

TiggyR there has been so much interesting linguistic discussion on the origins of "haitch" this thread. It?s a shame you ignore that and play the "you are misguided and just trying to speak 'nicely'" card.

TiggyR · 21/01/2010 11:26

I have pointed out in previous posts that there is some mileage in the Scottish/Irish argument but I do honestly feel that certainly in England (and the language is English after all!) that there lies the root of the problem/issue.

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