Jealousy and envy are not synonymous.

[Habbibu]

They really aren't. They're verging on being opposite, in fact. I suspect that they will become synonymous, actually, but while I can rant about it, I will.

I don't suppose the 26th century Mumsnet pedants will be wanking having similar discussions over the origins and true meaning of .

BCZ, you do know we know each other, don't you?

Yes. I do. It doesn't mean I can't admire your eloquence and erudition though.

Oh, no, go ahead and do that to your heart's content - just wondered, that's all. Hope all's well in the house of zebra.

Yep. Foals all thriving and stripy and Mrs Z says, "Hi". (Or she would if she wasn't out guzzling wine at booze book group.)

You chaps all fine?

Anyway, don't let me interrupt with my banal domestic witterings...

Thanks Habbibu!

1867 Chambers Etymological refers to the German "selig" meaning happy or blessed in its definition of silly, as well as the Anglo-Saxon. The glossary in my copy of Beowulf gives sael as (1) time; season, due season; opportunity; (2) happiness; joy

We have perhaps learned to despise unthinking joy somewhere along the line. I know I have.

Speaking of which, I have some more bad news about jealousy. I was reading Cinderella to dd this evening (as retold by Vera Southgate in 1964 in the Ladybird 606D "Well-loved Tales" series) and on the first page it says:

Cinderella's elder sisters were beautiful and fair of face but, because they were bad tempered and unkind, their faces grew to look ugly. They were jealous of Cinderella because she was a lovely child, and so they were often unkind to her.

Of course I had to put the book down and say firmly to dd "of course that should really say envious". Dd said "what's embeemouse?"

I am very interested in the silly = holy thing, and not only because it makes this thread seem divine.

I suppose it is not all that surprising given the whole notion of a holy fool, a holy innocent, etc, but in the vastness of my etymological ignorance I had never heard of it.

I know that antonyms often have a common origin, so can anyone tell me if 'sly' as an antonym of silly-in-the-sense-of-daftly-innocent has the same origin as 'silly'?

(At any rate I think antonyms have common origin. Ot is that just ant and dec?

In my etymological ignorance I didn't know that antonyms have a common origin. I'm not sure that these two are connected though. Here is the popular view from 1867:

Sly - dexterous in doing anything, so as to be unobserved; cunning; wily; secret; done with artful dexterity. Dan. slu, Ger. schlau, Sw. slug, cunning; Norw.slog, Sw. slog, dexterous, handy.

ooh, can't post on the other thread now as it is too long, but just to say that I agree with Iorek that it is useful to have a distinction - ie jealous meaning wanting to keep or protect what is yours, rather than covetously wanting something belonging to others, or envious meaning resentfully wishing that you had something belonging to someone else. But while I that meaning is the primary use of jealous, the other use is also correct, at least these days. But yes, saying, I think the jealous person is YOU, and waiting for the resulting bafflement would have been quite satisfying...

Thanks for the 'sly' material Iorek. Seems like nothing to do with 'silly' then?

Who can give examples of antonyms with common origins? I'm sure their are quite a few. Did Freud make reference to that, when talking about ambivalence, the containment of some feelings in their opposite, etc?

One e.g is 'friend'/'fiend'?

Also, 'host' in the sense of enemy army and in the sense of the person giving hospitality, etc?

SCREAMMM at 'their are quite a few'

iorek, when your dd said 'what's embeemouse' did you reply 'it means jealous'?

hmmm....really don't think the Old Icelandic legends can be considered as English literature...

Cleave!

Of course not mabanana, I just realised I had gone too far in my pedantic zeal and went for a lie down. We will revisit the subject when she is old enough - say, 4.

No, mab, I know they can't - I was just wandering off-topic. They were so much more fun, though. Well worth the effort of translating.

This thread has EGM. Thank you all!