Jealousy and envy are not synonymous.

[Habbibu]

They really aren't. They're verging on being opposite, in fact. I suspect that they will become synonymous, actually, but while I can rant about it, I will.

Oh well, the OED is probably so exhaustive it can cover all uses and abuses.

what grimma said...

If a word in English has had consistently the same meaning (or one of the same meanings) since the 16th Century, then I think that is its meaning!

That's true, actually, and it would be interesting to get a proper lexicographer's take on it.

Well, mabanana, what's interesting is that the OED doesn't record any uses of the envy meaning after 1867, so it hasn't been that consistent. It certainly doesn't seem to have been the "main" meaning of the word, and the two were useful as distinctions - "I am jealous of my husband, you envy me my husband". I suspect, though, that that distinction will slip, and it'll be interesting to know if "envy" is predominant in dict. definitions of jealousy in 100 years time

14th Century actually. Right back really to the beginning of written English!

I was replying to Grimma first!

Did you know that "silly" and "dizzy" used to mean holy?

And soon used to mean now

We are clearly a nation of procrastinators.

"Right back really to the beginning of written English! " Bloody wasn't. Printed English, yes, but you want to go a good few centuries back before that for written. And Chaucer was a poet - he pissed about with language a lot. That's why I'd like to see the detailed lexicography on some things - would be interesting to knw exactly how many sources record that meaning. there may be very few.

Oh, yes, had forgotten "sone"

That is interesting about silly and dizzy though. Was it in the age of the mystics? Tell us more.

I agree with you Habbs. Many a time I have been irritated by this phenomenon. I reckon they will become synonymous.

....splendid.

This thread has served to elicit gentle mirth (EGM??) here at Goth Towers.

I am envious of the amusing erudition shown(Ah! Another one. AES??). I also wish I possessed some of my own to jealously guard.

Sadly, erudition is not an attribute normally present in those who failed to complete Politics degrees at Pompey Poly....

... I now feel the urge to confess to my (heinous) vices.

....rows of full stops prior to making a statement, for one.

(I have always mistakenly hoped this indicated a certain folksy and idiosyncratic charm)

....however my (over)use of parentheses must be a hanging offence.

(I've never used those emoticon thingys, though.)

But is constantly used as a synonym isn't it? As well as having other meanings that are also commonly understood and used (ie 'he guarded it jealously' "Jealous Brad fumes at Angie's sex scenes" ) it is also used as it is on the other thread. Or in the Bible (as revealed by Google!) 'the brothers were jealous of Joseph and sold him for money'

It is commonly used in this way. Does that make it right?

That (I think) was my original point, mab. I think there are becoming synonyms - I don't think that the early, roughly synonymous use was really common until relatively recently, though finding that out would be a Master's thesis in itself. I suspect that they will move more and more towards synonymy, and that envy may become obsolete. I don't have to like it, though.

Come and make your teeth itch on the reflexive pronouns thread. It's a whole world of pain.

Oh I studied Ye Olde English and raise you a thorn, and a tedious Beowulf, and some translations of French and Latin, and religious homilies, but let's face it, English literature of any real quality really started in the 14th Century.

I'm sure there will be people shrieking 'Beowulf tedious! Noooo!

Depends what you mean by quality. Any real familiarity - yes, we recognise 14thC lit onwards as something we better understand as literature - notably the C Tales, I guess - but quality as in use of language, telling of tales - nah, don't agree with you there. Old Icelandic stuff beats them all, tbh.

I thought silly meant innocent originally? Please enlighten me!

I'll be back...

OK - earliest examples 1225 -

1. Spiritually blessed, enjoying the blessing of God. Said of persons, their condition or experiences.

a1225 Leg. Kath. 1421 {Th}urh seli martirdom. a1225 Ancr. R. 108, & tu seli ancre, {th}et ert his seli spuse, leorne hit {ygh}eorne of him {th}et [etc.]. a1240 Lofsong in O.E. Hom. 205 Bisech for me {th}ine seli sune Milce and merci and ore. c1340 Abbey of Holy Ghost in Hampole's Wks. (1895) I. 326 A Jhesu, blyssede [es] {th}at abbaye and cely es {th}at religione. c1375 Sc. Leg. Saints xxiv. (Alexis) 74 In pathmos als {th}e angel brycht Schawyt hyme ful sely sycht. c1400 Primer in Maskell Mon. Rit. (1846) II. 11 Resp: Cely [orig. felix] art thou, hooli virgyne marie, and worthiest al maner preisyng.

By 1290 it was used as "Innocent, harmless. Often as an expression of compassion for persons or animals suffering undeservedly."
4. Pious, holy, good.
a1225 Leg. Kath. 1453 Tac read, seli meiden, to {th}e seoluen. c1250 Gen. & Ex. 1986 {Edh}or was in helle a sundri stede, wor {edh}e seli folc reste dede;..Til ihesu crist fro {edh}eden he nam. c1275 On Serving Christ 53 in O.E. Misc. 92 {Th}ureh his [John the Baptist's] sely sermun serewe him wes by~{th}ouht. c1450 Mankind 426 in Macro Plays 16 Lady, helpe! sely darlynge, vene, vene!

BUT - the OE word saelig doesn't have its own etymology in the OED, and I'm pretty sure that had the fairly simple meaning of holy, which seems to have shifted in the early C13th.

I think you are wonderful Hab.

I am too lowly to join in this discussion but, by God, I'm enjoying following it. I admire you all. (particularly the emoticon-haters - I hate those stupid yellow faces).