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Just been sent this Giles Coren thing - thought I'd share with MN :) (Can't decide whether to applaud or stick pins in him)

227 replies

JustineMumsnet · 23/07/2008 23:40

As sent to Times subs...

Chaps,
I am mightily pissed off. I have addressed this to Owen, Amanda and Ben
because I don't know who i am supposed to be pissed off with (i'm assuming
owen, but i filed to amanda and ben so it's only fair), and also to Tony,
who wasn't here - if he had been I'm guessing it wouldn't have happened.
I don't really like people tinkering with my copy for the sake of
tinkering. I do not enjoy the suggestion that you have a better ear or eye
for how I want my words to read than I do. Owen, we discussed your turning
three of my long sentences into six short ones in a single piece, and how
that wasn't going to happen anymore, so I'm really hoping it wasn't you
that fucked up my review on saturday.
It was the final sentence. Final sentences are very, very important. A
piece builds to them, they are the little jingle that the reader takes with
him into the weekend.
I wrote: "I can't think of a nicer place to sit this spring over a glass of
rosé and watch the boys and girls in the street outside smiling gaily to
each other, and wondering where to go for a nosh."
it appeared as: "I can't think of a nicer place to sit this spring over a
glass of rosé and watch the boys and girls in the street outside smiling
gaily to each other, and wondering where to go for nosh."
There is no length issue. This is someone thinking "I'll just remove this
indefinite article because Coren is an illiterate cunt and i know best".
Well, you fucking don't.
This was shit, shit sub-editing for three reasons.

  1. 'Nosh', as I'm sure you fluent Yiddish speakers know, is a noun formed
    from a bastardisation of the German 'naschen'. It is a verb, and can be
    construed into two distinct nouns. One, 'nosh', means simply 'food'. You
    have decided that this is what i meant and removed the 'a'. I am insulted
    enough that you think you have a better ear for English than me. But a
    better ear for Yiddish? I doubt it. Because the other noun, 'nosh' means "a
    session of eating" - in this sense you might think of its dual valency as
    being similar to that of 'scoff'. you can go for a scoff. or you can buy
    some scoff. the sentence you left me with is shit, and is not what i meant.
    Why would you change a sentnece aso that it meant something i didn't mean?
    I don't know, but you risk doing it every time you change something. And
    the way you avoid this kind of fuck up is by not changing a word of my copy
    without asking me, okay? it's easy. Not. A. Word. Ever.
  2. I will now explain why your error is even more shit than it looks. You
    see, i was making a joke. I do that sometimes. I have set up the street as
    "sexually-charged". I have described the shenanigans across the road at
    G.A.Y.. I have used the word 'gaily' as a gentle nudge. And "looking for a
    nosh" has a secondary meaning of looking for a blowjob. Not specifically
    gay, for this is soho, and there are plenty of girls there who take money
    for noshing boys. "looking for nosh" does not have that ambiguity. the joke
    is gone. I only wrote that sodding paragraph to make that joke. And you've
    fucking stripped it out like a pissed Irish plasterer restoring a
    renaissance fresco and thinking jesus looks shit with a bear so plastering
    over it. You might as well have removed the whole paragraph. I mean,
    fucking christ, don't you read the copy?
  3. And worst of all. Dumbest, deafest, shittest of all, you have removed
    the unstressed 'a' so that the stress that should have fallen on "nosh" is
    lost, and my piece ends on an unstressed syllable. When you're winding up a
    piece of prose, metre is crucial. Can't you hear? Can't you hear that it is
    wrong? It's not fucking rocket science. It's fucking pre-GCSE scansion. I
    have written 350 restaurant reviews for The Times and i have never ended on
    an unstressed syllable. Fuck. fuck, fuck, fuck.
    I am sorry if this looks petty (last time i mailed a Times sub about the
    change of a single word i got in all sorts of trouble) but i care deeply
    about my work and i hate to have it fucked up by shit subbing. I have been
    away, you've been subbing joe and hugo and maybe they just file and fuck
    off and think "hey ho, it's tomorrow's fish and chips" - well, not me. I
    woke up at three in the morning on sunday and fucking lay there, furious,
    for two hours. weird, maybe. but that's how it is.
    It strips me of all confidence in writing for the magazine. No
    exaggeration. i've got a review to write this morning and i really don't
    feel like doing it, for fear that some nuance is going to be removed from
    the final line, the pay-off, and i'm going to have another weekend ruined
    for me.
    I've been writing for The Times for 15 years and i have never asked this
    before - i have never asked it of anyone i have written for - but I must
    insist, from now on, that i am sent a proof of every review i do, in pdf
    format, so i can check it for fuck-ups. and i must be sent it in good time
    in case changes are needed. It is the only way i can carry on in the job.
    And, just out of interest, I'd like whoever made that change to email me
    and tell me why. Tell me the exact reasoning which led you to remove that
    word from my copy.
    Right,
    Sorry to go on. Anger, real steaming fucking anger can make a man verbose.
    All the best
    Giles
OP posts:
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Megglevache · 24/07/2008 10:11

He does wear nice shoes.

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ExterminAitch · 24/07/2008 10:11

oh yes, 100x

tbh he's got so much positive (ie fawning) attention for his last couple of vituperative emails that i'm sure he's upping the ante. but on this occasion he is Right. this stuff does matter, esp if you are trying to find a voice and recreate it for the reader, whether your own or someone else's. [twat]

it's not shakespeare, it's just a bit of fidelity, and subs just shouldn't fuck about with first person pieces or quotes. it's up to the ed to sack the writer if they don't like their stuff. house style and sense is all a sub should be looking for in an authored piece, the rest stands and falls with the guy with the photo byline.

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Cies · 24/07/2008 10:11

OMG Littlelapin! WHY would they do that to the photo, and do it so badly?

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littlelapin · 24/07/2008 10:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DeeRiguer · 24/07/2008 10:14

they should print his emails to subs .... more entertaining than column

i think he is right though and in publishing terms, quite polite!

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UnquietDad · 24/07/2008 10:21

I just read that on Guido Fawkes' blog and then came here and saw it here.

He does sound a bit of an arse, frankly. Especially all that stuff about never ending on an unstressed syllable. FFS, Coren, you are not bloody Shakespeare. You are a food critic. (If ever there was a "Golgafrinchan B Ark" job...)

I'd shag his sister, though.

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Habbibu · 24/07/2008 10:22

Tell you, I thought academics could be terse, but turns out they're a load of pussycats compared to the newspaper world. Still think a polite request would have been more appropriate to the level of the transgression than the explode-o-mail he sent. Not as funny, no... Perhaps he's compiling a book of his own rants.

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UnquietDad · 24/07/2008 10:22

To be honest I think the whole "nosh" vs. "a nosh" thing will have been lost on most readers anyway. (It would have been lost on me.)

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beansprout · 24/07/2008 10:26

I'd shag him but I realise that puts me in the minority.

I'll get my coat.

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ExterminAitch · 24/07/2008 10:26

it wouldn't, it would sound different in your head... c'mon, you're a writer, you know that instinctively.

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LuLuMacGloo · 24/07/2008 10:28

I find him hugely irritating but he is absolutely right to complain - it IS crap editing.

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CatIsSleepy · 24/07/2008 10:29

I agree with UQD with the whole nosh/a nosh thing

and it's a rubbish joke anyway (did I already mention that? )

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piratecat · 24/07/2008 10:30

i am also in the minority then re shag.

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UnquietDad · 24/07/2008 10:32

Aitch, I agree it would sound different. What I meant was (sorry not to be clearer) that I wasn't aware of the difference in meaning he points out, which I think is a little precious if I'm honest.

I think he wanted to show off by putting in a gay subtext, and was miffed that the sub's intervention means he now isn't going to get those right-on points. I think it's that, rather than any desire to protect the language, which has riled him!

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ExterminAitch · 24/07/2008 10:33

we didn't see the preceding para, though, and are therefore unable to comment on whether the joke would have worked or not, surely. and the stress IS important.

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CatIsSleepy · 24/07/2008 10:33

piratecat: yes

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ExterminAitch · 24/07/2008 10:35

x-post uqd.

i'd be miffed because they'd fucked with my last line. no more, no less. they Just Shouldn't. but that wouldn't have made for such an entertaining email.

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CatIsSleepy · 24/07/2008 10:35

am just not sure how a joke about blow-jobs gay or otherwise fits in with a restaurant review- unless the restaurant in question is serving unfeasibly large sausages?

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UnquietDad · 24/07/2008 10:36

The subs have to justify their existence...?

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ExterminAitch · 24/07/2008 10:39

they should be doing so by creating hilarious headlines. (which they often do, the fuckers, by simply lifting your introductory line and patching together the first para. grrrr.)

me and dh often refer to 'the dead hand of the sub', when they touch your work and suck the life out of it. ghastly.

i was a brilliant sub, i hardly need add...

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Cappuccino · 24/07/2008 10:40

I can't see why they cut it out tbh

and I can't see why he cares

it's a bit of a clunky sentence anyway imo

(sorry Giles. I did see you with your top off once in Supersizers and I don't want to criticise you at all. Nice abs)

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UnquietDad · 24/07/2008 10:42

Thing is, right or wrong, if I berated an editor like that they'd be less inclined to be accommodating towards me in future, not more. Why does he think being an arse is going to help him get his way?

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Cappuccino · 24/07/2008 10:42

would the 'a' have bust the line?

[hopeful]

I was a sub too btw , back in the day

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MsDemeanor · 24/07/2008 10:42

I'm a writer and I think Giles, get OVER yourself. I read the two sentences about four times and I STILL had to read the rest of his ridiculous email to spot the difference. I can assure him that the bleary eyed, hungover, inattentive readers of his column do not regard it as precious gospel, the unchangeable word of Giles. Poor bloody subs. This kind of vicious vitriol should be completely unacceptable. If one of the subs had dared email something a fraction as offensive to him, he would be chewing the carpet and demanding they lose their job. It is an utterly unacceptable way to speak to a fellow human being, let alone a colleague.

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CatIsSleepy · 24/07/2008 10:42

i think he is so far up his own arse he can no longer see what an arse he is being
or something

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