Oxford comma dilemma

[HotCrossBunplease]

I have started working on a new project and have a colleague whose job it is to manage internal communications. She is lovely and very experienced.

I am the “figurehead” of the project in that all internal messaging says to contact me, and I am responsible for setting the overall tone and content, so I write a first draft and then pass to her for comments.

She has just come back with suggested amendments to our first big announcement and she has sprinkled Oxford commas all over the place. I can’t stand them. Two instances are new lists that she has added, based on wording that I had used in a different sentence structure. A third is a list that was in my original draft, to which she has just added the OC. As you can imagine, the third one rankles the most!

I really want to point out that my original was not wrong and that OCs are a matter of personal style. I could pull rank and make her remove them but that would make me an arsehole and set our working relationship off on the wrong foot. My sentence was this:

“Training will be provided in English, French and Portuguese.”

which has now become

“..English, French, and Portuguese”

The ones she has added are:

“Their enthusiasm, insights, and feedback have been invaluable”

and

“considering the broader impact of [project] on our clients, our practice, and the way we do business.”

I know that OCs are not wrong. I also know that not a single reader will care (apart from one friend of mine in the company who knows about my visceral objection to OCs and will find it hilarious).

Not sure what I even want from this post. A bit of solidarity maybe?

Well, aren't we meant to be teaching it? Just tell it "improve" things but within agreed parameters and no fucking Oxford commas. We are forbidden from getting abusive with Copilot at work.

Derailing the thread further (sorry OP!), there is an excellent poster on one of the Taylor Swift threads insisting that she will "literally die" if she doesn't see the dress soon.

If it is genuinely needed for clarity, it is needed.

FromCo-pilot:
Why Should You Avoid Using the Word Literally?
Avoiding the use of "literally" is recommended for several reasons:
Dilutes Actual Meaning: "Literally" is often used to add emphasis where it is not needed, which can dilute the actual meaning of the statement. For example, saying "I literally died laughing" strips the word of its power and makes it harder to convey when something actually happened in a literal sense.

Creates Confusion: Using "literally" when you mean "figuratively" can confuse your listener. It forces the listener to mentally correct your statement, adding unnecessary cognitive load.

Makes You Sound Unintelligent: Overusing "literally" as a filler word or for non-literal emphasis can reflect poorly on the speaker, suggesting an inability to find more precise or descriptive words to convey intensity or meaning.

To maintain clarity and precision in communication, it's essential to use "literally" correctly and to choose more precise language when possible. This will help ensure that your messages are received accurately and effectively.

The purpose of an Oxford comma is to avoid ambiguity. There was no ambiguity in your original script so I would remove them.

They’re hideous looking and we have enough Americanisms creeping in as it is!

I can't abide at Oxford commas but I've noticed that AI seems to love them which makes me hate them even more.

Yes, OP used it to make her point clear.
Suggesting it made her ‘sound thick’ is ridiculous, and absolutely horrible of you as well.

I like Oxford commas. It feels closer to the spoken prosody. If commas show a short pause, then it makes sense to have one before the ‘and’ in the last item of a list.

Now, that’s interesting as one of my objections to “, and Portuguese” makes it sound as if there was a bit of a pause and then we added Portuguese as an afterthought. I don’t want my colleagues in Brazil to feel like their needs were an afterthought.

I don't mind them, and consistent usage can be helpful. It takes all the guesswork out of parsing lists - otherwise, some writers are not always as clear as they think they are.

Yeah but when you have an actual list where the last item is two things then there really is no pause: Who’s coming? Dad, Uncle Bob, Tom and Jerry Smith. As opposed to: Dad, Uncle Bob, Tom, and Jerry Smith.

I didn't say it made her sound thick.
I posted an opinion and that opinion is not mine alone.

You implied it by what you said @PleasantPedant.
Anyway, let’s move on.

Same here. I'm all in favour of an Oxford comma where it provides clarity but none of OP's examples need one; it makes each of those sentences look clunky.

I wouldn’t beat about the bush. Just say you noticed that the corrections included Oxford commas and ask if that’s a style policy.

That way, if it is, you’ll know and going forward can take that into account in your writing for work. If it isn’t, and is down to an AI grammar check or similar you’ll have drawn her attention to it.

Some people hate them, some are fans, but it could well be that she hasn’t considered it particularly. There’s definitely an argument to be made in favour of them if you have a US operation, and an argument against in terms of clutter.

I think it’s a straightforward conversation that doesn’t have to have any overtones if you’re willing to adapt to whatever the final decision is.

It didn't add anything and you accused me of posting something ridiculous and horrible when I hadn't.

Well this is an interesting discussion!

Years ago, when I was editing a book being published by the Oxford University Press, I was instructed to use the Oxford comma. Hence, believing it was an English style, not an Americanism. However, having said that, I can’t really find reference to it in the OUP style guide now. Though the OU style guide does say "Use as little punctuation as necessary while retaining the meaning of the sentence".

This blog on the importance of a well placed comma was interesting.

I think I agree in the case of the latter two examples, maybe more especially the last one. If I were reading that text as a speech I think I’d naturally pause for emphasis at the points your colleague has inserted those commas, OP.
I’m still not certain I’d use the commas in writing 🤔

I really don’t like the comma before ‘and Portaguese’. There should be no pause there.

Thanks. We have no US presence.

I’m more and more inclined towards the conclusion that she ran it through AI and I find it a bit offensive as I could have done that myself. I was expecting her to use her skills and experience to enhance it.

To the poster who said “aren’t we supposed to be teaching it?”, we have a closed-loop version of Copilot which does not feed back any of our input for model training purposes. And even where tools do feed back input for training, the models are trained on so much more US material than anything else so the plaintive cries of a relatively small number of UK users won’t make much of a dent. Yes, you could ask it in a particular session to Use UK English and avoid Oxford commas but it would not “learn” to avoid them every time anyone in our organisation asked it to redraft text. (We could, however, upload our style guide, if only it covered this point…)

(NB the project is not Copilot, it’s a different AI tool)

I find the Oxford commas are inserted by those who feel they know better than me. For example, I am given Mark's report and Martin's report to edit, I edit them make them presentable, then pass them back for them to confirm that I've not changed the meaning or removed anything.
Mark takes umbrage and returns it with barbed comments and Oxford commas, Martin says 'Wow thanks, it's what I wrote but polished.'

I did the same. The serial comma is a thing of beauty and a joy forever.

I’d favour a semi colon there but I am a bit addicted to them:

I can speak German, French and Spanish; Portuguese at a push.

I have been trained at work to consider impact not intent when choosing what to say or write to others. You may not have intended to call me stupid but that was the impact of what you wrote, I’m afraid.

I love a semicolon; I am always delighted when I find a good place to use one.

I use semi-colons. If you don't like them or don't know how to use them, don't use them.

I love a proper punctuation discussion! Thank you all. My sympathy to OP as this situation would also wind me up, but punctuation pedants can make themselves so unpopular with this sort of discussion. The rest of the world either just doesn't care or think they know better.