Linguists, where do you draw the line?

[Jacopo]

Following on from the “haitch” versus “aitch” thread I would like the linguists on here to tell us where, if anywhere, they draw the line on what is correct or incorrect. On previous occasions the professional linguists here have said there is nothing wrong with using “I was stood at the bus stop” or “I was sat eating my breakfast” instead of the more standard “was standing” and “was sitting”. Their professional opinion seems to be that language changes all the time, that it’s very interesting to observe the changes, and that it’s pointless, unkind, and possibly snobbish to say these usages are incorrect. Linguists on the “haitch” thread were lamenting the days when it was all green fields around here and discussions would take place between linguists without any ordinary people jumping in to claim things were correct or incorrect. So my question to the linguists is this - do you draw the line anywhere? Without pointing a snobby finger, would you say the use of “draw” for “drawer” is incorrect, or just an interesting variation? Another example is the increasing use of “loose” in place of “lose”, which I’ve seen on an Oxford professor’s blog, no less. To be clear, I mean people saying they want to loose weight, instead of lose weight, - often seen on social media. Should we stop telling our children it is incorrect? Linguists please give your opinions!

[SwedishEdith]

Can non-linguists add anything as well? I just think the lose/loose thing is that the spelling doesn't match the pronunciation very well. Lose rhymes with choose.

[Serenissima21]

My unofficial oponion is what I say is correct. I teach grammar and I am also a researcher in sociolinguistics. For me context is everything and I teach my students that certain choices are better depending on the context. So I have no problem with someone saying "I am sat here reading mn" but I wouldn't want to see it in an essay. I don't correct other people's social media posts or edit my own but I may be silently judging you if you write could of.

[QueenofLouisiana]

Personally, I am more tolerant of "I was sat..." etc than I am of the use of words which are completely different- draw/ drawer, except/ accept etc.

I (have been flat on my back in pain- which is likely to be relevant) have been watching Escape to the Sun today and one of the presenters was driving my mad with her "What if your offer is excepted?"

Not sure if that is due to my degree in linguistics or the 20-odd years teaching English though.

[Buggerthebotox]

Not a linguist as such but I have a languages degree and love language.

FWIW I inwardly cringe at "loose" for lose. It's an easy word to get right. As for "I was sat" that's clearly incorrect as far as I'm concerned and I would not use it in speech or online.

I consider "Haitch" to be incorrect in most cases (I absolutely get the cultural angle) and I would not say it, ever. As far as I'm concerned it's "aitch".

I also cringe at "disinterested" for uninterested.

However I love new words, particularly those associated with technology such as "uninstall" etc. I don't mind verbified (is that a word, even?) nouns.

I think there's a difference between being creative with language (fine) and being sloppy with it (not fine).

DD is the same (she's studying law so needs an excellent grasp of SPAG).

I don't think I'm particularly pedantic and by no means perfect but I care.

[MrsFin]

It's the use of less when it should be fewer that gets me.
And the incorrect use of apostrophes (or lack of use).

Neither rule is difficult to understand or remember ffs.

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

I'm not a linguist but to me whether something is acceptable out not depends on whether it is in casual speech vs written language. Then within written language, casual vs more formal affects my opinion.

So someone saying me and Mary are going to town is fine. It would also be fine in casual written text too such as an email or text to a friend. However, it wouldn't be OK in a work email.

I was sat/stood is very jarring and while I can just about tolerate it in spoken language, I hate seeing it written down.

Loose/lose, draw/drawer etc are always wrong when written. The person writing it obviously doesn't know the correct spelling of the word.

The one that always gets my goat, whether spoken or written, is the incorrect use of I. It's all over the place now.

E.g. "Give that to Mary and I" or "Come with Mary and I" should be "give that to mary and me" or "come with Mary and me". You remove the other person to determine which to use. You wouldn't say "give that to I" therefore you wouldn't say " give that to Mary and I"

[Babyiskickingmyribs]

To be honest deciding whether something is correct or incorrect is not in a linguist’s job description. Google prescriptivism vs descriptivism. That’s linguists 101. I think you’d be hard-pressed to find the words ´incorrect’ or ´wrong’ used to describe examples of speech or writing in any linguistics research. You might see ´attested’ which means we have examples of people using that form and ´unattested’ which means people generally don’t say or write that. You might see notes about how and why a person’s or a group of people’s speech or writing are different to a ´standard’ variety. So explains the ´haitch’ ´aitch’ thing varies by dialect/sociolect/age or whatever. Or explaining that people write ´could of’ not ´could’ve’ because /kʊdəv/ is a perfectly normal pronunciation for ´could’ve’ and ´could of’ would be pronounced exactly the same.

[ItsNotMeAnymore]

As someone who can't spell and has terrible grammar I like to look at this a different way. In the past you had to fit a certain standard mould to be classed as clever but nowadays people are a little more enlightened and realise clever people come in all sorts of different guises. The fact that a PP saw an Oxford professor use loose instead of lose simply suggests he isn't great at English but that's all. Maybe he is dyslexic or maybe English is his second or third language. I don't think you get to be an Oxford professor unless you are incredibly bright.
I think people who are rude about other peoples English on an online chat forum are often being nasty. I don't understand what they get out of it.

[Serenissima21]

Louise Cummings' book "Working with English Grammar" is a great introduction to the idea of different grammars as she gives examples of grammar in language acquisition. grammar in language disorders etc.

[FlowerArranger]

there's a difference between being creative with language (fine) and being sloppy with it (not fine)

I agree.

[jeannie46]

The one that always gets my goat, whether spoken or written, is the incorrect use of I. It's all over the place now.

E.g. "Give that to Mary and I" or "Come with Mary and I" should be "give that to mary and me" or "come with Mary and me". You remove the other person to determine which to use. You wouldn't say "give that to I" therefore you wouldn't say " give that to Mary and I"
.......................
Deep sympathy - it drives me nuts!

[3womeninaboat]

There’s a difference between deciding what variants you yourself wish to use and making declarations about what everyone else should do. I‘m a language professional and for my work and my own writing I try and stay on the right side of the ‘good vs. common usage’ list in the Chicago Manual of Style. I couldn’t care less what people write in informal contexts.

[Jacopo]

Lots of interesting replies here, with quite a number saying that while they might dislike certain usages they would not correct another person’s usage, especially in an informal setting - context is indeed important. For what it’s worth my own position is that I wouldn’t correct anyone’s use of English unless the person was one of my children. And they are adults now so I wouldn’t correct them either!!
I imagine some linguists might have complicated family discussions if they have teenagers using almost indecipherable teen language.

[MrsFin]

As someone who can't spell and has terrible grammar I like to look at this a different way

Unless you have dyslexia, is there a reason why you don't learn the spellings of words and the correct use of grammar?

I wonder why people don't want to get it right. Those who do get it right do so because they learned the correct spellings etc.

[ScheisseMinelli]

Indecipherable to whom? Presumably their fellow teens would understand perhaps and their use of that language to you is a deliberate act of rebellion, and therefore your point about context (including e.g., level of formality; nature of interlocutor) still stands

[Serenissima21]

But sometimes the spelling does matter. I have seen posts where councillor was written counsellor and vice versa and it was confusing. Sometimes it can lead to misunderstandings.

[Geamhradh]

@Jacopo

Following on from the “haitch” versus “aitch” thread I would like the linguists on here to tell us where, if anywhere, they draw the line on what is correct or incorrect. On previous occasions the professional linguists here have said there is nothing wrong with using “I was stood at the bus stop” or “I was sat eating my breakfast” instead of the more standard “was standing” and “was sitting”. Their professional opinion seems to be that language changes all the time, that it’s very interesting to observe the changes, and that it’s pointless, unkind, and possibly snobbish to say these usages are incorrect. Linguists on the “haitch” thread were lamenting the days when it was all green fields around here and discussions would take place between linguists without any ordinary people jumping in to claim things were correct or incorrect. So my question to the linguists is this - do you draw the line anywhere? Without pointing a snobby finger, would you say the use of “draw” for “drawer” is incorrect, or just an interesting variation? Another example is the increasing use of “loose” in place of “lose”, which I’ve seen on an Oxford professor’s blog, no less. To be clear, I mean people saying they want to loose weight, instead of lose weight, - often seen on social media. Should we stop telling our children it is incorrect? Linguists please give your opinions!

You're conflating descriptivism and correctness.
If one of my students wrote "I was stood at the bus stop" in their academic paper and handed it in, I'd correct it.
I'd also note (descriptivism) that it's common usage, though not what we think of as standard English.
Grammatically, it's correct. The syntax is perfect. Semantically, it's easy to understand. The meaning is clearly the same as "I was standing"
So, ultimately, with that example, there is no line to be drawn as such, but rather an observation of what the writer has done with the language, and why they've done it.

It's not just a case of "language changes all the time" - though of course it does. That's why we (purely reductively) have spelled/spelt etc, neologisms added to dictionaries, and why grammatical elements disappear over time. It's why we don't still say "ye" and "thee".

The incorrect spellings are just incorrect. But, again, it's obvious to anyone why the error occurs.

So, no, we shouldn't stop telling our children it's incorrect. But it would be quite nice to stop thinking that starting threads in PC to rip the piss out of other people's SPaG is cool.

[Imabitbusyatthemoment]

I work with a guy who says ‘pacific’ instead of ‘specific’. Oh my Lord.

[Geamhradh]

@MrsFin

It's the use of less when it should be fewer that gets me.
And the incorrect use of apostrophes (or lack of use).

Neither rule is difficult to understand or remember ffs.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/pedants_corner/2090993-Fewer-not-less

Though, arguably, not quite as simplistic (less/fewer) as those maintaining it's the difference between countable and uncountable.

[mumsiedarlingrevolta]

How do you feel about "Me and Harry are going to the cinema" ?

My DS (well educated and in his 20's) says "Me and..." all the time and makes my blood boil which might be why he does it his argument is that it is common usage and therefore absolutely acceptable-that language evolves and I am stuck in the past.

[Serenissima21]

I think the less/fewer rule is becoming less important. Some wrong uses really jar but most sound ok tbh.

[Geamhradh]

@Serenissima21

I think the less/fewer rule is becoming less important. Some wrong uses really jar but most sound ok tbh.

Yes, I'd agree.

[Geamhradh]

@mumsiedarlingrevolta

How do you feel about "Me and Harry are going to the cinema" ?

My DS (well educated and in his 20's) says "Me and..." all the time and makes my blood boil which might be why he does it his argument is that it is common usage and therefore absolutely acceptable-that language evolves and I am stuck in the past.

He's right- it's common usage. He's right- language changes all the time. He's wrong if he thinks it's correct. I wouldn't correct it though, again, unless he handed it in.
Is he David Crystal? One of his most famous papers is "if it is used, it is correct" (but he does go on to explain the descriptive/prescriptive approach etc)

[Buggerthebotox]

@Geamhradh:

I'm intrigued as to why you say "I was stood" and "I was standing" mean the same.

Surely "I was stood at the bus stop" means I was placed there by someone/something else?

So both may be correct depending on the context but do not mean the same thing?

I can understand why "councillor" and "counsellor" would be confused. They're both correct spellings of different things.

But why would someone misspell "chest of drawers" as "Chester Draws" when it makes no sense at all to do so? What is thought process? (I get that both sound the same)

[Youcancallmeval]

Many things give me a real shudder, but other than when my dd says them, I try very hard to ignore them. I did have to say a gentle something the other day however when the following was received in a group email: How's you's?