Linguists, where do you draw the line?

[Jacopo]

Following on from the “haitch” versus “aitch” thread I would like the linguists on here to tell us where, if anywhere, they draw the line on what is correct or incorrect. On previous occasions the professional linguists here have said there is nothing wrong with using “I was stood at the bus stop” or “I was sat eating my breakfast” instead of the more standard “was standing” and “was sitting”. Their professional opinion seems to be that language changes all the time, that it’s very interesting to observe the changes, and that it’s pointless, unkind, and possibly snobbish to say these usages are incorrect. Linguists on the “haitch” thread were lamenting the days when it was all green fields around here and discussions would take place between linguists without any ordinary people jumping in to claim things were correct or incorrect. So my question to the linguists is this - do you draw the line anywhere? Without pointing a snobby finger, would you say the use of “draw” for “drawer” is incorrect, or just an interesting variation? Another example is the increasing use of “loose” in place of “lose”, which I’ve seen on an Oxford professor’s blog, no less. To be clear, I mean people saying they want to loose weight, instead of lose weight, - often seen on social media. Should we stop telling our children it is incorrect? Linguists please give your opinions!

[Geamhradh]

[quote Buggerthebotox]@Geamhradh:

I'm intrigued as to why you say "I was stood" and "I was standing" mean the same.

Surely "I was stood at the bus stop" means I was placed there by someone/something else?

So both may be correct depending on the context but do not mean the same thing?

I can understand why "councillor" and "counsellor" would be confused. They're both correct spellings of different things.

But why would someone misspell "chest of drawers" as "Chester Draws" when it makes no sense at all to do so? What is thought process? (I get that both sound the same)[/quote]
Sat/sitting- context as opposed to reading rule books and applying the rule absolutely.
If someone says to me "I was sat at the bus stop" I know it's highly improbable someone plonked them there.

People spell things incorrectly because they don't know it's incorrect. Also, 'chest of drawers'/ "chester drawers" brings other factors: the fact that it's an object which, itself, is disappearing from usage. Do IKEA call them "chests of drawers"? So, we are starting to not see it written down. Add in the complex pronunciation for many of "drawers" which is a homophone of "draws" (without knowing, I'd bet most of the people who make the mistake are English rather than Scottish (for example) and the connected speech weak form for "of" which could (if you didn't know the correct spelling) be heard ad the "er" in Chester. Again, particularly in non- rhotic accents like most English speakers have. (so, thinking about it, it's probably not found so much in more rhotic English accents like SW English -as well as Scottish and N. Irish of course)

[Geamhradh]

*homophone for many English speakers.
Typing in supermarket queue 🤣

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

@Geamhradh - Grammatically, it's correct. The syntax is perfect. Semantically, it's easy to understand. The meaning is clearly the same as "I was standing"

It does not mean the same thing as I was standing.

[Serenissima21]

It does not mean the same thing as I was standing.
It does for most people.

[idontgetpaidenoughforthis]

Although I do cringe at some social media posts I wouldn't correct them as it reflects everyday speech. However I do object to colleagues using the same lack of grammar and spelling in communications with clients. We have a 22 yr old with a degree in journalism no less, with an appalling lack of care taken in emails.

[AlfonsoTheMango]

"I was sat", "me and her" etc make me inwardly grit my teeth. And I say that as someone who is dyslexic and for whom English is a second language.

"I was sat" does not mean the same thing as "I was sitting". The former is the passive and does not describe who performed the action. You were sat by whom? The latter describes an action that started before another action took place, eg "I was sitting watching television when the little green men from next door demanded breakfast".

[LizzieAnt]

It's why we don't still say "ye" and "thee".

@Geamhradh
Ye is used all the time in Ireland instead of you (plural). It's only used informally though, so in speech or informal writing like a text to a friend. It's not used in formal writing, but it's very common and very useful

[Buggerthebotox]

"People spell things incorrectly because they don't know it's incorrect.".

I get that, but they don't know if it's correct either. If you're not sure, why not check? It's easy enough.

If I'm not sure how to spell a word, I look it up rather than risk my sloppy SPAG being torn apart on social media. People judge.

[Geamhradh]

@LizzieAnt

It's why we don't still say "ye" and "thee".

*@Geamhradh*
Ye is used all the time in Ireland instead of you (plural). It's only used informally though, so in speech or informal writing like a text to a friend. It's not used in formal writing, but it's very common and very useful

Oh yes, agreed!

@AlfonsoTheMango, you're doing what I said above. Applying a basic grammar rule. As has been said, anyone who actually cannot understand that the person at the bus stop was, in all probability, not put there against his free will, has comprehension problems which would be unlikely to have anything to do with dyslexia but rather a stubborn refusal to accept the validity of descriptive linguistics.

Yes, all of us who teach would correct it. But we'd have serious problems of our own to address if we pretended we couldn't understand it.

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

@Serenissima21 - It does not mean the same thing as I was standing.

It does for most people.

That still doesn't make it correct.

[Serenissima21]

That still doesn't make it correct
Well I guess not if you're more prescriptive than descriptive. I'm not.

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

@Geamhradh - you're doing what I said above. Applying a basic grammar rule. As has been said, anyone who actually cannot understand that the person at the bus stop was, in all probability, not put there against his free will, has comprehension problems which would be unlikely to have anything to do with dyslexia but rather a stubborn refusal to accept the validity of descriptive linguistics.

That's all well and good if you're used to hearing it in colloquial speech. However, hearing or reading phrases that make no sense to you grammatically does require a bit of additional cognitive analysis to work out what is meant.

My first time encountering the phrase was here on mn. I find it quite jarring. I was not sure initially what it meant exac (I.e. Was it continuous or not) but got the gist.

[FramboiseRoyale]

would you say the use of “draw” for “drawer” is incorrect, or just an interesting variation

As suggested by a previous poster, this is a "variation" that probably is used only by people who speak English with a non-rhotic accent. For the rest of us (most Americans, Scots, Irish, etc.) who are rhotic speakers, "draw" and "drawer" are not homophones in our accents because we pronounce that final "r."

As for "excepted" and "accepted", if it is not written, how do you know that the person is using it incorrectly? The difference in my accent is there, but it is very subtle.

Very interesting discussion, by the way.

[LadyMonicaBaddingham]

@jeannie46

The one that always gets my goat, whether spoken or written, is the incorrect use of I. It's all over the place now.

E.g. "Give that to Mary and I" or "Come with Mary and I" should be "give that to mary and me" or "come with Mary and me". You remove the other person to determine which to use. You wouldn't say "give that to I" therefore you wouldn't say " give that to Mary and I"
.......................
Deep sympathy - it drives me nuts!

'Myself' being used instead of 'me' is the one that makes me twitchy... 🤔

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

@Serenissima21 - Well I guess not if you're more prescriptive than descriptive. I'm not.

It's more about the role you believe grammar plays in effective communication. Colloquial usage of grammatically incorrect idioms and phrases is fine for informal communication. I do it myself (I consider mn to be informal).

However, in semi-formal and formal communication, merging of meaning will result in a much smaller language that has lost much of the nuanced communication that correct grammar facilitates.

[Serenissima21]

Colloquial usage of grammatically incorrect idioms and phrases is fine for informal communication. I do it myself (I consider mn to be informal).
Almost exactly what I said in my previous comment!

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

@Serenissima21 - Almost exactly what I said in my previous comment!

Not in anyway the same. You claimed the two phrases mean the same thing. They don't.

The fact one is are used colloquially to mean the same as the other still doesn't make them mean the same. It simply means that people understand what you are trying to say as the incorrect version is commonplace.

[Serenissima21]

This is what I said in my previous post:

For me context is everything and I teach my students that certain choices are better depending on the context. So I have no problem with someone saying "I am sat here reading mn" but I wouldn't want to see it in an essay. I don't correct other people's social media posts or edit my own

The fact one is are used colloquially to mean the same as the other still doesn't make them mean the same.
Why not? Where do you think meaning comes from then? People don't use it because they are "trying to say" what you think they should be saying and getting it wrong!

[OchonAgusOchonOh]

@Serenissima21 - I assumed you were referring to the previous post, rather than a previous post. In that one, you started they mean the same thing. The fact I think it's acceptable in an informal setting does not mean I think it's correct.

Why not? Where do you think meaning comes from then? People don't use it because they are "trying to say" what you think they should be saying and getting it wrong!

Grammatically, they mean different things. People are using it because they assume it is the correct way to express what they are trying to say.

Obviously, other than my children and an occasional student, I would never correct someone's grammar. Many of my students use done and seen instead of did and saw. If they are submitting formative work I will tell them to check the grammar. I will point out an example.

[butterpuffed]

would you say the use of “draw” for “drawer” is incorrect, or just an interesting variation

Here's an interesting variation....I was reading an article in The Mirror online, presumably by a journalist. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry when I saw the headline included the words 'plane sailing' .