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Pedants' corner

Saying haitch.

338 replies

Chunkymenrock · 12/09/2021 19:46

I almost never hear anyone saying aitch anymore. It's so infuriating! There is no such word as haitch. Am I alone in feeling so irritated? 😕

OP posts:
Steeple · 20/09/2021 07:44

@mathanxiety

How is it clear that it’s unexamined? Take this thread for instance...

Power remains where it is however much we examine it.
Yes, but if we examine what we are saying we find out that we are basing opinions on assumptions that are not necessarily true. Then, lesson learned, we stop assuming that SE England is the centre of the universe.

Hear hear, @mathanxiety.
TheBraveLittleTailor · 20/09/2021 09:37

Some people seem to come close to arguing that because there are other standards throughout the world, a standard British English pronunciation doesn’t or shouldn’t exist.
Whatever I think of the evolution of south-eastern English, and however much I accept other versions of English, the locus of correctness in terms of British English remains posh people in the South East.

The only practical application of the ‘haitch’ versus ‘aitch’ debate I can think of is whether it is ‘a HSE manager’ or ‘an HSE manager’. Whether I was working in London or Liverpool, I would have written ‘an HSE manager’ and will do as long as that’s supported by the Oxford English Dictionary.

Geamhradh · 20/09/2021 10:22

@TheBraveLittleTailor

Some people seem to come close to arguing that because there are other standards throughout the world, a standard British English pronunciation doesn’t or shouldn’t exist. Whatever I think of the evolution of south-eastern English, and however much I accept other versions of English, the locus of correctness in terms of British English remains posh people in the South East.

The only practical application of the ‘haitch’ versus ‘aitch’ debate I can think of is whether it is ‘a HSE manager’ or ‘an HSE manager’. Whether I was working in London or Liverpool, I would have written ‘an HSE manager’ and will do as long as that’s supported by the Oxford English Dictionary.

The world's most eminent linguists agree with your first sentence. Crystal, Chomsky, Krashen, Trudgill, Aitchison obviously, but also the younger ones, Thornbury etc.

Though possibly, not that it "doesn't" or "shouldn't", but rather more democratically, that it's certainly shifting away from SE England and will cease to be considered the ne plus ultra very soon (linguistically speaking) if it hasn't already.

I'd be interested to read any linguists who do hold on to the other side of the argument, but off the top of my head I don't know any.

LizzieAnt · 20/09/2021 11:47

the locus of correctness in terms of British English remains posh people in the South East

@TheBraveLittleTailor
I agree with Geamhradh above, but just wanted to ask what your position is on varieties of English other than British English?

Do you consider it incorrect for someone who speaks American English to spell humour as humor?

Do you consider it incorrect for someone who speaks Hiberno-English to say haitch instead of aitch?

Do you consider it incorrect for either to say gotten?

TheBraveLittleTailor · 20/09/2021 21:49

@LizzieAnt
When I’ve answered your questions, would you like me to recite the Lord’s Prayer as well? Actually I think I have answered them, at least by implication.
@Geamhradh So all the big names aren’t actually saying that there isn’t or shouldn’t be a standard British English pronunciation. I’d say if there is such a thing then what it’s based on is more a political than a linguistic question.
It was nice talking to you.

LizzieAnt · 21/09/2021 02:13

@TheBraveLittleTailor
I read your reply and was taken aback. I can see you're clearly angry and upset. I wasn't really trying to be confrontational when I posted earlier, I was genuinely curious, but I know tone can be tricky in messages such as these, and my questions were put quite baldly.

In your last post you had been very careful to emphasise you were speaking about British English, so I was curious whether you considered haitch, gotten etc to be okay in some other varieties of English. That is, were you differentiating between speakers in the UK and those who don't speak British English? And did you hold the former to a different or higher standard? I have just re-read the thread and have seen that, yes, you had already said you felt haitch to be okay in English variants other than RP. I'm afraid l had lost track of that.

I think you're saying you feel there should be a standard English pronunciation that's held to be correct, but that you don't judge those who speak other dialects or varieties - I assume either within or outside the UK. Have I that right?

Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, I think that many others do judge those who speak the non-standard variants. Many opinions on this thread - and even the fact the thread was created in the first place - have already made that clear. That's the problem with having one correct standard, I suppose. I do feel that a certain narrow segment of British society considers itself - and only itself - to be the proud custodians of the English language. Regrettably, this can only bring division and exclusion.

mathanxiety · 21/09/2021 04:46

...the locus of correctness in terms of British English remains posh people in the South East.

As a speaker of Hiberno-English, and an observer of American English, I have to take issue with that bold statement.

The words '...in the opinion of posh people in the South East' need to be added to make the statement accurate.

canwing · 31/12/2021 18:23

I bet this came about thanks to lefty English teachers thinking it should be haitch because it has a ha sound at the beginning. Ok so why not Woubleyou or Fef, Rar or Ses!

KnightonShiningArmour · 02/01/2022 09:37

@canwing

I bet this came about thanks to lefty English teachers thinking it should be haitch because it has a ha sound at the beginning. Ok so why not Woubleyou or Fef, Rar or Ses!
What does someone’s politics have to do with their pronunciation?

Many years ago I moved from a part of England where haitch is the norm to a location where it is not. I’ve shifted my pronunciation however my political affiliation didn’t shift. What a ridiculous thing to say!

Nathlash · 02/01/2022 09:42

@canwing

I bet this came about thanks to lefty English teachers thinking it should be haitch because it has a ha sound at the beginning. Ok so why not Woubleyou or Fef, Rar or Ses!
Seriously? You revived a zombie to dazzle us with this incisive piece of logic? Hmm
Bortles · 16/01/2022 12:10

Phonics teaching has a lot to answer for.
No DD6 it's not Haitch. Neither is it inGUH. As in walkinGUH.

tillytoodles1 · 19/01/2022 21:21

I read it was a Catholic/other religion thing. At Catholic school we always said Haitch and years later that's still how I say it.

Mummyoflittledragon · 21/01/2022 11:48

I only ventured onto this board this morning and quite by accident as I presumed the thread was AIBU.

I have found my people. Dd 13 says it. It grates and is wearing. As is her insistence that bloody is not a swear word.

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