Basic/non negotiable house rules for defiant 19yr old DS

[boyohboys]

I posted on here about 6 months ago at the end of my tether ready to boot DS out and got some great advice. Before much could happen, DS decided to take himself off travelling for 4.5 months. He was happy, we were happy and all was good for the first week but then normality set in and as predicated by some of you, we’re now back to square one . He’s rude, disrespectful, treats the house like a hotel and says he’ll ’get another job after the summer holidays’ forgetting the fact the everyone else is on holiday from uni not life!!!
This can’t go on so I need some hard line ground rules & advice on consequences for not following them that don’t instantly involve me telling him to sling his hook! the practical ones I can manage but it’s describing basic manners and respect I’m not sure how to phrase to actually get through to him. according to him I’m the problem and make him angry with my ‘petty shit’ and he’s fine with everyone else. Examples - if I’m at the sink and he wants to get to it he’ll say ‘move please’ I find it aggressive and unpleasant so say “could you say excuse me please” (which he managed for the first 16 years of his life) Another example, I’ll ask him to do something, he invariably won’t but then ask me for a lift to which I’ll say “possibly but not until you do XX that I asked you to do 4 hours ago” Both times he’ll have a strop say I’m causing an argument, or tell me I’m being a bitch & go off in a strop. This is the sort of very regular exchange that is killing me and I need him to change his ways or leave.

so rules we already have that are mainly but not always followed:

no smoking/vaping/drugs in the house
no unannounced overnight guests
tell us if you’re staying out
cook (& preferably join) in a family meal once a week
Be responsible for your own room/washing
clear up after yourself
pay rent on time - it’s still v.low but will be increasing September unless he’s enrolled on a college course or apprenticeship.

what other non negotiable house rules do you think are reasonable for a 19year old? any other advice welcome but counselling /therapy for DS not a consideration as I’ve tried multiple times and he won’t engage.

I have questions. You say your rules are non-negotiable, but you also say they are not always followed. What do you do when he doesn't follow the rules, if they are non-negotiable? This piece is key to results.

no vaping - I used to just bin any I found be cross and shout about lack of respect and not following our very simple rules. Since disposable vapes are no longer a thing and I’ve binned 2 of his expensive reusable ones he doesn’t seem to have done it again but early days. This is a prime example though - what do I do?!? The other rules he’s ok with - rent takes some nagging and usually a monthly argument but he seems to have now accepted that one.

What good is it making even more rules when he refuses to follow the ones you already have?

It's not working. He needs to go.

Sorry yes you’re right though, they haven’t been non negotiable in the past and we both know it. He breaks a rule and we have an argument. Rinse and repeat on a regular basis. It’s exhausting and it’s affecting my mental health and my poor younger dc is increasingly retreating h to his room whenever he hears us arguing. He does also argue with DH but his general look of disdain & attitude is mainly reserved for me.

For god's sake he is 19. He has no respect for you or your home.

Throw him out and change all the locks.

A child of mine of that age would only call me a bitch once.

Their stuff would be on the front lawn so fast they'd blink and miss it happening.

This man is going to be a delightful partner to a woman at some point isn't he OP?

Someone once told me that to see how a man will treat you see how he treats his mum ....

Kick his disrespectful aggressive selfish arse out and hopefully it'll teach him something

You need to define non negotiable. One strike and he's out? Or "one last chance" x1000?

How is he paying rent? Does he work?

The issue isn't that you need more rules, it's that he both needs to follow the ones already set AND behave like a decent human being.

He doesn't need help to understand this - he's out there obeying the social contract with other people.

He needs help to understand what the consequences to his utterly unacceptable behaviour are. You need to spell those out and then enact them as required.

He’s called you a bitch, and he’s still there? (While continuing to break your apparently non-negotiable rules?) Why would he change when there are no consequences? No way would have him in my house.. and you have younger children too..

Sounds like he needs a purpose like a job or volunteering or a course. Three days a week minimum. Maybe tell him he has a month to find something or he’ll need to move out? I think it’s probably time he moved out honestly. Am at the same stage with my DS and he’s 18.

Find a job by Monday or you’ll be assisting him down to the local job agency.

If my over 18 year old called me a bitch I’ll be telling them to either come back to me with an apology or to go upstairs to pack their belongings.

Do you have any other relatives this delightful human could go stay with for the holidays? Great Uncle Fred who only eats cabbage soup and needs his garden digging over?

Your rules seem all pretty reasonable but my #1 rule would be never, ever again daring to call me a bitch. I can’t even think of a situation where that would ever be acceptable. DD knows that and I knew that since… forever?

Of course I know it’s not acceptable and also well aware of what this could mean for future partners - like I said, my mental health is in tatters over this so really don’t need reminding what shit parents we’ve been. The problem until now has always been - kick him out and where exactly does he go? He is still my son and I don’t want to see him on the streets! He couldn’t afford to rent anywhere it’s so expensive round us - even working ft would probably only just cover basic bills let alone food & living. If I thought him moving into his own place was a realistic option he’d have been out last Christmas! But yes, I am now at that stage where I see it can’t go on and he needs a dose of reality and a wake up call.

Can you pay for or contribute to a room somewhere

What's his father doing about this? Tolerating misogyny from his son?!

TBH a few years ago I could never either. It’s been death by a thousand cuts - small digs, minor cussing, increasingly poor language - all reprimanded never just ignored often other repercussions but he’s just not bothered by anything. Swears and I say no lift - fine I’ll get the bus; rude so I say he can make his own dinner - whatever and he will cook later in the evening; we have long since ended his allowance he had his own money from a pt job so self-sufficient and pays his own phone/travel etc. it’s exhausting and I hadn’t realised how much it was impacting my mental health and our family dynamic until he was away for those few months.

His father/my DH would have kicked him out a year ago if I’d have let him They chat superficially now but otherwise barely engage with each other now as the last time my DH confronted him for his attitude towards me nearly ended up in a physical fight after DS squared up to DH and told him to “go on hit me, you know you want to” we were all like - WTF DH has never laid a finger on him or anyone in his life!!!! It’s a very sad situation we never thought we’d find ourselves in and trying to now do what’s best for us and to an extent, try and safeguard ds’s future.

OP, this sounds untenable. As hard as it is, someone needs to stand up to your son. He's rapidly becoming a bully. You have a lot of control here - the Wi-Fi, access to the house. Leverage it to gain back control.

Having been through something similar, we did end up kicking my son out. It was awful, heartbreaking, and we didn't sleep. He went and got himself a hotel for a few nights, then came back slightly shell-shocked. We didn't ease the pressure after he returned, and he moved out permanently within a couple of months. Things have been much better since. He still talks to us, and we spend more quality time together than before.

Your son may have no money - he can go and couch surf until he figures something out. You need your house and your serenity back.

hugs

Thanks @LemonTraybakethis does give me some hope. He’s gone on a house sit for a week so we have a mini reprise during which time I’m looking to local housing options. If paying the first month’s rent or a deposit is what it takes to get him on a path to independence then so be it but holding all this info back unless he completely crashes as really, he needs to help himself

He's using your love and concern for him against you and until he experiences consequences, nothing will change. Why is one child's appalling behaviour being allowed to damage the health and well-being of all the other members of the family?

An onlooker might conclude that your failure to enforce basic good manners is actively enabling him. Shape up or ship out. It really can be that simple. Good luck.

There's not much point in putting more rules in place when the man doesn't follow them already. He's an aggressive misogynist, squaring up to his father, calling you a bitch and ordering you to move.
He doesn't deserve favours like lifts, use of your WiFi etc.

Tell him he is to find somewhere else to live by October (being incredibly generous), as he's not enjoyable or even pleasant to live with.

How he affords it is something he'll need to figure out, like every other adult.

Number 1 rule should be don’t call your mother a bitch.

@boyohboys This sounds incredibly tough. You say any other advice welcome but counselling /therapy for DS not a consideration as I’ve tried multiple times and he won’t engage. - what if the ultimatum/non-negotiable is get into counselling/therapy in the next two weeks or you have to move out by x date. He sounds like an incredibly unhappy young man. That's not to excuse his behaviour, it's utterly unacceptable, but it sounds like he desperately needs some help. You might even find a family therapist that would see both of you.

At least with that ultimatum, you would know you had given him the opportunity to do something that could turn things around for him (and the rest of you).

@Drivingthevengabus I can't see anything indicating the man desperately needs help or is incredibly unhappy?

Help to not be aggressive, entitled, or call his mother a bitch?
He's being housed, fed, lifts, and is making everyone else incredibly unhappy.

It sounds like your son’s found a chink in the armour. The chink is the difference between you and his dad. You have the expectations and do the reminding (but also inadvertently allowing flex which is why your son doesn’t respect you), whereas dad’s more hard line but has also bailed out, allowing you to do the worrying.

The key is a united front. We have 4 young men who have gone through a similar stage. What turned it around was consistency, visibly showing a united front, backing each other up, plus an extra dose of firm, authoritative commands (not a naggy request, a direct command) from a father because there’s something about a man’s voice that makes younger men pay attention.

I can confirm that all the lippy nonsense was temporary and they have quickly turn into polite, respectful, hard-working young men who do their own washing and unload the dishwasher regularly.

Form a united front with your partner. Make a plan to be consistent. If you ask your son to be polite and he isn’t, dad to immediately step in and say ‘be polite to your mother’. With consistency, the turn around is pretty swift. If you ask for rent following a reminder and you get backchat, dad to step in and say ‘transfer it now’. Your son will soon seek to avoid this uncomfortableness and do something straight away, and then with repetition it all becomes habit.

Another key to this, and it’s an important one, is PRAISE. When you notice him doing something nice, positively habitual ‘thank you for washing up. That’s a big help’.