Basic/non negotiable house rules for defiant 19yr old DS

[boyohboys]

I posted on here about 6 months ago at the end of my tether ready to boot DS out and got some great advice. Before much could happen, DS decided to take himself off travelling for 4.5 months. He was happy, we were happy and all was good for the first week but then normality set in and as predicated by some of you, we’re now back to square one . He’s rude, disrespectful, treats the house like a hotel and says he’ll ’get another job after the summer holidays’ forgetting the fact the everyone else is on holiday from uni not life!!!
This can’t go on so I need some hard line ground rules & advice on consequences for not following them that don’t instantly involve me telling him to sling his hook! the practical ones I can manage but it’s describing basic manners and respect I’m not sure how to phrase to actually get through to him. according to him I’m the problem and make him angry with my ‘petty shit’ and he’s fine with everyone else. Examples - if I’m at the sink and he wants to get to it he’ll say ‘move please’ I find it aggressive and unpleasant so say “could you say excuse me please” (which he managed for the first 16 years of his life) Another example, I’ll ask him to do something, he invariably won’t but then ask me for a lift to which I’ll say “possibly but not until you do XX that I asked you to do 4 hours ago” Both times he’ll have a strop say I’m causing an argument, or tell me I’m being a bitch & go off in a strop. This is the sort of very regular exchange that is killing me and I need him to change his ways or leave.

so rules we already have that are mainly but not always followed:

no smoking/vaping/drugs in the house
no unannounced overnight guests
tell us if you’re staying out
cook (& preferably join) in a family meal once a week
Be responsible for your own room/washing
clear up after yourself
pay rent on time - it’s still v.low but will be increasing September unless he’s enrolled on a college course or apprenticeship.

what other non negotiable house rules do you think are reasonable for a 19year old? any other advice welcome but counselling /therapy for DS not a consideration as I’ve tried multiple times and he won’t engage.

You and his dad need to have a calm and polite conversation with him where you explain to him that he needs to leave your home by 1st September. It's up to him what he does, where he lives, what job he does. But he needs to leave, it's affecting everyone else in the house and you want to be able to salvage some kind of positive relationship with him. He's being vile and the longer he stays, the longer it continues and becomes entrenched behaviour. He's got no respect for you or his dad or anyone else in the house. He's going to be a nightmare for anyone getting into a romantic relationship with him. But it can change, only if he moves out and learns some responsibility and develops some good qualities.

I wouldn’t think more rules and negotiations will succeed. I’d tell him straight he is unpleasant to live with, shows no respect and you will tolerate it no longer. He has until end of August to turn it around or you refuse to live with him any longer and he must leave. I would tell him he is an adult and you cannot control his choices but choices have consequences. You control your choices and you refuse to live like this. Change or go. And mean it! If he starts with the guilt tripping ‘so you want me on the street?’. No YOU do, you have a perfectly good home here but you choose to behave in such a manner that no one can live with you - that’s on you. Actions have consequences. Time’s up.

Do you think happy people behave like that? I don't.

I was very clear in my post that his behaviour is entirely unacceptable. But it seems that @boyohboys wants to try to improve the relationship with her son. Maybe the only option in the end will be throwing him out. Maybe that is the only way he'll realise that he's been incredibly disrespectful and cut off the hand that feeds, but maybe there's the opportunity to repair the relationship, which I think is what OP wants.

Well yes, plenty of abusive people are happy when abusing. I can't see how the man is desperately anything at all.
OP shouldn't want to repair the relationship until the man corrects his vile behaviour choices, apologises, stops the misogyny and entitlement, and behaves consistently as a fully functional productive, feminist adult.

Tough love needed here.

Your rules and boundaries have zero deadlines or consequences so are nothing more than hot air.

Your DS emotionally violent and misogynistic behaviour towards you is classed as domestic violence. Your younger child is also experinecing domestic violence by sensing, seeing, hearing these attacks (as defined by the NSPCC).

First step is to get him out.

Look for jobs with accomodation. Someone I know worked for a Sam Smiths pub in central London with a subsidised room above only costing £60/week.

Then you can potentially look at rehabilitating him and your relationship.

You have to be prepared do the hard bit. Short pain, long gain. Do it for your younger DC's MH if you cant do it for your own.

I called to police on my 14 year old DS for pushing me over - the first time. It didnt happen again. Our relationship is good now.

Less words. Take action.

Rules are all logistical rubblish - this is a domestic violence situation that you and your younger DC are enduring.

There are lots of charities supporting child/adolescent to parent violence and abuse.

Do you think happy people behave like that? I don't.

I think abusive boys and men behave like that.

The advice to any woman facing daily domestic violence in her home from a male is to get out - not try to make them 'happy' or have any concern for their happiness.

Other issues (MH, subs abuse, etc) might explain their bad behaviour but will never excuse it.

If OP wants to rehabiliate her DS and rebuild a relationship - it needs to be done under separate roofs - this isnt working.

You say @boyohboys he used to be lovely. Why do you think he changed?

Please look at spare room. Com to look at house shares in your area. Him moving out may be more affordable than you think. Depending upon where you are in the country it could be doable for £600 pcm all in. Very much within a single able bodied person's wage bracket. Your son is being abusive and it's ok to say you won't put up with it any longer. I have had similar frustrations with my own male children. They are more resilient than you think and do usually come good eventually especially if you stand up to them.

Swears and I say no lift - fine I’ll get the bus

He should be getting the bus anyway. There's no reason why a 19 yo man (with no special needs) should be ferried around by his mother. Stop the lifts.

When you notice him doing something nice, positively habitual ‘thank you for washing up. That’s a big help’.

He is 19, not a toddler!

What can she do??!!

OP I wouldnt waste any more time on this, he will thrive out of the hosue, he managed it for while he was travelling it would seem

Give him 2 months notice, he is leaving on x date, pay for a deposit for a house share and first 2 months rent, the rest is up to him.

He will mature one day but it needs to be in his own time but more importantly his own space.

You have to want to engage with therapy, you have to have the emotional insight to understand your behaviour and want to change it. He doesnt sound like that. He also doesnt sound unhappy, he went off blithly travelling and was happy enough doing that.

Hes a shit, end of story. But shits do grow up when they're made to.

He needs to move out, no more chances, no more trying to shape up in OPs house, he can do that independently and the relationship will be much better.

Thanks for the continued advice.

I am mindful that you are no doubt all right and he just needs to move out now, but I would like to give him once last chance once he realises this time there will be very real co sequences and also make it clear it’s his choices that will lead to him moving out NOT us just blithely evicting him. He’s away until end of next week so there’s still time for us to discuss and deliberate but plan so far is much like @Firefly100suggestion:

On 1st September he has 2 options:

1. If we have seen significant and immediate changes to his behaviour and attitude generally & complied with the current (very) basic Household rules/chores, he can continue to live in our home.
2. If there is no change or not sufficient to ease the stress and strain of him being there, he has 1 month to move out.
3. A condition of living here is attending some therapy sessions. For those that asked, we suspect he has undiagnosed ADHD, I got him some talking therapy last year but he didn’t follow up on it and has said he’s been depressed in the past and is very very angry so whilst I agree he is an abusive shit, I would also like to give him the option to talk to someone and maybe help him understand why he’s so angry /do something about it.

I’ve looked on spareroom and there are options in the £700-750 range so even if he just stuck with bar work, perfectly doable so it’s good to know there are options as I suspect we will be going down this route as I honestly can’t see hi changing as he doesn’t seem to think he’s doing anything wrong. I remember once telling him he was being abusive and gaslighting me and honestly the incredulity (& subsequent ranting) were something else.

a few of you asked what made his like this - honestly I don’t know. Weed smoking started around 16-17 so that possibly? Having no direction when lots of his mates are focused and driven? Undiagnosed ADHD? Social media influences - his politics are highly dubious (IME) and some of the RW nonsense he spouts I assume comes from SM feeds. There’s no trauma or incident that we’re aware of he’s just really bloody angry with us/me. Incidentally, he’s lovely, chatty, personable and great company with other people so I know it’s a choice he’s making to be an arsehole!

I think I'd be saying "you're clearly not happy living with us, and you actively seem to dislike us. So what are the steps you're going to take in order to live somewhere where you will be happier and won't have to put up with our company all week?"

Please don't feel.his behaviour is a reflection on you as parents. If he has been OK till recent years, what has changed? Is he friends with a different group of people? Is it possible he is on something? At 19 he is not a child. I agree calling you a bitch is unacceptable. I bet your DH feels like his hands are almost tied because son is trying to goad him physically. A calm discussion about alternative accommodation is needed i feel. Good luck OP

Weed smoking started around 16-17 so that possibly? Having no direction when lots of his mates are focused and driven? Undiagnosed ADHD? Social media influences - his politics are highly dubious (IME) and some of the RW nonsense he spouts I assume comes from SM feeds. There’s no trauma or incident that we’re aware....

He doesnt need a trauma 'incident' with this perfect storm of abuser builder context you have described

You are not doing him any favours by 'giving him one last chance' - you are enabling his continued dysfunction. You need to be a brave and courageous parent now. It's time he felt the consequences of his choices and actions (subs abuse, lack of career, abusive behaviour) - he needs a short sharp shock to shift his mindset - not more of the same enabling indulgence where you are selling him short to relieve your own discomfort of seeing this through. Counselling when he doesnt want to go is counterproductive - now is not the right time - it will come.

Sounds like his friends have their shit together living 'independently' at uni.

This doesnt have to be a huge confrontation or conflict - just a calm assertive conversation where you will offer guidance to get him living independently.

Why are you afraid of that for him - when his friends all do it - and when he's been travelling for months?

Until recently @knackredd I’d say I was afraid that if he left under such strained relations, that would be the end of our relationship. But right now there is no relationship to salvage - he’s made it quite clear what he thinks of me & I now just want a normal stable home for me, DH & DS2.

Perhaps you’re right, reframing it to ‘ You’re clearly not happy living here. How can we help you become independent?’ Is a better way of framing. I’m pretty sure we tried this before and it ended up in a big argument with him saying ‘right so is this your way of kicking me out’ me back pedalling and him ranting and storming off .

Yes reframe it like that - then just rinse and repeat - twice only. Play to his ego - all your friends live out etc. The next step is actions - no more words. Help him find somewhere to live - pack him up and drop him off. Keep putting one foot in front of the other in the right direction.

How old is your younger DC? Are they entering the stage of important exams and need a 'calm and peaceful home' in which to achieve this? They also likely have some emotional growth to recover having experienced DV in their own home.

He calls you a bitch?! Where has this come from? My sons have been difficult but have never called me that or any other names and if they did I would be absolutely blowing my top and telling them to get out. Where has this amount of aggression come from?

Sorry if you’ve already answered this, but is your DH his father? Why not hand over rule policing and punishment to his father for a bit.

Remove your attention from your DS. Don’t engage unless he’s pleasant. Just walk away. Try to take the emotion out of it and let him feel a taste of your disregard for him when he treats you as less than fully human.

He’s come to think of you as someone who looks after you and gives him attention, no matter what. See if changing that by removing your attention from him, makes him realises what is at stake.

I wish you buckets of luck - it sounds really unpleasant.

@TerrribletwosI don’t know where the aggression comes from but it’s certainly not at home - my husband / his father adores me and even if we argue (which is generally not often and is usually about DS!) he would never name call.

It's so difficult. I wonder if this name calling is from something online?

My kids are in there 30s now and although my son was addicted to Xbox at the time and there was limited usage to phones there was stuff on there I didn't like. It must be so hard now when everything is out there, including influences to make it acceptable to call your mum a bitch.

I think it's so hard for mums these days..I do sympathise
Even 10 to 15 years ago it was easier.

"Perhaps you’re right, reframing it to ‘ You’re clearly not happy living here. How can we help you become independent?’ Is a better way of framing. I’m pretty sure we tried this before and it ended up in a big argument with him saying ‘right so is this your way of kicking me out’ me back pedalling and him ranting and storming off"

You shouldn't have backpedalled. He knows that you are parenting out of fear, fear he will not talk to you if he leaves, fear of his attitude and behaviour at home, if this was not your child and this was a partner you would hopefully show them the door.

Stop giving him the whole summer to turn things around. Fuck that, he has had so many chances literally sticking two fingers up at your rules, you find vapes, just bin them, no consequences for this.

You need to sit down, you, him, Dh and lay it out now. He is unhappy, you are unhappy, don't hide that from him. He is clearly not wanting to live at home, here is a printed list of SpareRoom places he can sign up to, this will give him his independence and you hope that it will help improve his life (and yours in a much calmer home) but make this about him. This is all about the benefits for him. If he says you are kicking me out you just say you don't want to live by the rules we have set so you are choosing to not live here. We use these words for primary children, they choose their actions, you choose the consequences. He has none. SpareRoom and off he pops.

It's such a natural reaction to try and take responsibility for your son's aggression, but please take a step back and see it for what it is - his behaviour

He is making real life choices, calling you names, being aggressive and while you have tolerated it for, what, a couple of years, it may be the making of him for him to move out.

He isn't being. 'kicked out,' - he kicked himself out by being so horrible and obnoxious.

Of course you want him to see the error of his ways, but tbh, you have given him so many chances, and you deserve to have a life too.

The horse has bolted a long, long time ago with this one.

Thank him for doing the dishes? Good idea if he was 7.

He needs to leave. Let him be a big boy in the real world without his “bitch” mother helping him.