My daughter says being harassed is part of life!

[Glax]

A young girl we know was harassed on the way to training by a man who followed her and wanted to “talk”, she is only 11 years old and was understandably upset.
My daughter and her friend (who are both 20) gave her some sympathy but when I spoke to them both their attitudes to it really got me.
My daughter simply said “she needs to get used to it. It will happen to her all through her life. This is something we just have to put up with it” her friend said “yeah! Wait until they start grabbing her bum! We get that all the time. You just get used to it”
How is it OK that they think you just have to put up with that?
Is this now the attitude of young women?
I was taken aback by that!

The eleven year old being talked to sounds potentially very, very dangerous. If it was my daughter, I wouldn't let her walk to training on her own anymore.

Surely there is an unspoken rule everybody knows that adults shouldn't speak to children they don't know. Most adults, I presume, would chose not to get directions, but to Google using their phone instead, rather than approach and possibly frighten an eleven year old child.

@Youarestillintherunning

No it isn’t. If we all stood up for ourselves and adopted zero tolerance from men, then Things would be a lot better.
We’ve allowed ourselves to be. We are being brain washed into accepting that harassment at any level is ok so long as we are allowed to live.
That isn’t acceptable. That’s putting women on a level of caged animals.
Men used to be taught respect and manners. It wasn’t perfect t by any means. But it was a lot safer than today.
Doing nothing still gets women killed. Knowing how to stop low level harassment will stop a percentage thinking it’s ok to escalate their behaviour. It’s been proven with crime. Harassment is a crime.

In many ways we have become complicit in allowing men to treat women like this and are sleepwalking into allowing them to take much more of our perceived freedoms away from us in the name of acceptance and ‘safety’.

@BargeBill19 the last time that I stood up for myself, the man in question smashed my front window then proceed to hit me in the face. So I would personally rather pretend that I didn't hear anything. When you say "no" to a man, they tend to get violent, especially if alcohol is involved. But it depends on the context ans environment you are in, in many cases its safer to say nothing.its horrible, but just a fact

Also, I really don't agree with passing the blame to women for not speaking up, that's not the issue here. And plenty of women do speak up in the appropriate contexts. On a wider societal level yes women need to continue to speak up, but one on one with a man, in an environment where you are not safe it's not the way forward.

OFGS

How a victim reacts makes it her fault.

If the 96% of reported rape cases without conviction had fought them off then we would all be ok yes?

Should we take a group action against them for that?

[quote Youarestillintherunning]@BargeBill19 the last time that I stood up for myself, the man in question smashed my front window then proceed to hit me in the face. So I would personally rather pretend that I didn't hear anything. When you say "no" to a man, they tend to get violent, especially if alcohol is involved. But it depends on the context ans environment you are in, in many cases its safer to say nothing.its horrible, but just a fact[/quote]
I totally get this!
We grow up learning how to placate drunk men because they ARE a danger to us. Better to keep them happy and laughing and then make a quick exit,
God, how fucking awful is that.......

They are right though. That's not to say it should be minimised or accepted, or is remotely acceptable but it is definitely a part of life and you do have to learn how to deal with it at a horribly young age.

These men feel like they can get away with it, and they can. Men are getting away with very serious sexual offences every day of the week, so why would they not think they can get away with harassment?

Men used to be taught respect and manners. It wasn’t perfect t by any means. But it was a lot safer than today

What an absolutely load of stinking, rose-coloured glasses bollocks. It is no more dangerous for women being out in the street today than it ever has been. At one time, not that long ago, women couldn't even go out unaccompanied by a man, or wear skirts that were above their ankles.

It’s not about the victim reacting. It’s about all of reacting and saying no, even low level harassment isn’t acceptable.
It’s not acceptable to whole whistle.
It’s not acceptable to verbally abuse someone.
It’s not acceptable to touch someone inappropriately or without permission.
It’s not acceptable to stalk someone.
It’s not acceptable to reduce someone to a sex toy.
It’s not acceptable to subjugate someone.
It’s not acceptable to get physically aggressive with someone
It’s not acceptable to force someone to live in fear.
Rape, murder, abuse all not acceptable.

But we’ve allowed (collectively) for these things to pass into normality. It’s not the individual, although individuals we are, but as a society and as a demographic we’ve allowed this to happen.
Either we do accept it as normal or we don’t.
I don’t and won’t. And yes I will fight back whenever and wherever I’m faced with it. Always have and always will. That’s what I was taught.

@Youarestillintherunning I’m sorry that’s happened to you. It’s shit. I fought back - I’ll admit a red mist came down and I fought back and won. But neither of us should have been input in those situations in the first place. Because collectively as a society we should be striving to become civilised.

@chickenyhead

No we are not and and shouldn’t be blaming victims, male or female. We should be supporting them, punishing the perpetrators and ensuring that society now and in the future becomes more responsible for each other’s welfare.

But it’s never going to happen. That’s the sad thing about all of this.

I can only assume you are very young compared to me.
But yes, society was very different. Vastly different rules. Violence has always been part of life. But, the hidden checks and balances were there, they aren’t any more as everyone turns a blind eye or just accepts it’s part of life.

As for you last sentences - I take it you are either not in the uk or the your history for the uk is skewed.

But it was a lot safer than today
No one got groped or harassed when I was at secondary school in the late 60s. The boys would have been called pervs or something if they had done.
People will come onto the thread ranting about jimmy saville etc - there possibly was more active paediofilia ?sp because people were in denial about it and children not believed but day to day I think it was safer as a young female ( though not once drink was involved).

Groping and harassment was common at my secondary school in the 1980s.

@Weebleweeble

Your school experience echo mine. We protected each other.

As for the likes of Jimmy saville and sexual harrasment - I cannot decide if the internet make it seem more acceptable to some people who might have other wise not gone that route, or wether internet and the media report it more widely to make it seem more prevalent.
I do know, that decades ago, somethings were dealt with within the local way before authorities were informed. Stepped out of line and you paid a heavy price. I’m not saying it was right - but it was efficient and effective.

@HarebrightCedarmoon

It should not have been. It never used to be. For that I’m sorry. Our generation failed you.
It should NOT be accepted now either.

Do you really believe that men don't know this behaviour is wrong? They wouldn't want other men doing it to their wives, mothers or children.

The onus should not be on young girls and women at all. They aren't responsible for the 4% conviction rate.

So why don't women keep standing up to it? There are several reasons including:

It increases the risk of violent outcomes. When I have reacted it has escalated.
Attacks are often in isolated vulnerable areas. Nobody is going to help you.
You go in to survival mode. Fight, flight, freeze, fawn.
People aren't close socially anymore, there isn't a Social network willing to sort it out for many.
People don't believe you. Horrific.
If people do believe you nothing happens. His word against yours.
Shame.

By the age of 21 I had been (in additionto many many minor incidents):

Raped, age 13 by a 21 year old.
Chased along the road 13 by a man on the way home from school because he liked me and I ignored him.
Digitally penetrated 14 on the tube during a school trip surrounded by all of my year group (shout out in that situation NFW the shame).
Groping of genitals 18 walking home alone on deserted Road. I punched him in the face and screamed my head off, probably because of the previous incidents). He had a knife and stalked me for weeks before getting bored because I wouldn't go out.
Pushed in to a Bush 21 on a deserted road and violently sexually assaulted.
Groped by a disabled man in the student bar, when I shouted out about his hand between my legs, I was being ableist.

So, in my adult life I have often frozen and waited for it to end. My ex partner being the exception. But even after reporting him and telling everyone, I was subjected to disbelief, poor ex comments, discouragement from pressing charges and victim blaming because obviously I should have done more.

Stop blaming women for men's behaviour. It is disgusting.

No one is blaming women for mean behaviour. Stop massively over reacting and reading what isn’t there. It only serves as divisive and weakening of those willing to stand up for what is morally right. You become part of the problem by doing that.

Your scenarios describe everting that is wrong with society and you say it yourself

nobody is going to help you.

This is what is wrong with society. This is why we all need to stand together and say it’s unacceptable and it is to stop.

Men do accept it. Not because they don’t see it happening to their mum/sister/daughter/wife/partner/friend. Because they don’t see the harm is causes. - they believe it’s a laugh/ their right/you should forget it and carry on and a million other reasons. They don’t see it as an invasion and a violation. Rather it’s a right of human passage.

Oh wow. No words.

Good. Then spend time choose to become part of a solution.

Dd 22 works at a hotel with golf course, ( lots of Leary men unfortunately)
She's done a couple of great comebacks.
Nice tits- thanks I grew them myself 😂
Nice arse- yuk, can you not, you are my dads age 🙄

My DM is 88 and she's talks about being sexually harassed as a young woman on the street and at work. I can't imagine anyone on this thread is older than that!

It probably makes a difference with where you are.
I grew up in a rural area, smallish town, so you knew who everyone was (more or less) or at least could have found out if you wanted to.
In a city where everyone was a stranger I can imagine it might be different (but my DM was from London and no mention from her of being harrassed).
But I don't know why women today want desperately to prove that life was as bad 60 years ago. Porn was limited to a few magazines with women with huge boobs on show (i have brothers 7 years older and found some they had hidden circa 1965) - no pubic hair, no private parts. It's a different league now and horrendously prolific which possibly feeds into the attitude of men that it's normal to perv and grope.
It really was not like that when I was young, I hitchhiked regularly in my teens and survived with only once having to ask the driver to stop and let me out and that was a huge truck so he could hardly drive off anywhere in that. No one touched me. Would you have your teens do that now?
The internet started in the mid 1990s - obviously, before online porn became a thing life was very different as far as that is concerned. Let alone child porn which as it is done secretly is rife now. It's different now.

@TabbyStar

My DM is 88 and she's talks about being sexually harassed as a young woman on the street and at work. I can't imagine anyone on this thread is older than that!

Indeed. My mum is 81 and talks about being harrassed at work in the 1960s, and in the street. Just nonsense to think there was ever a time when women could just wander around, safe from male predators. There is just so much more freedom of movement for women now, it's incomparable. But a significant proportion of men are still engaging in anti-social and criminal behaviour.

Porn has certainly proliferated since the internet arrived, I would not argue with that. But sexual harrassment has existed since the dawn of time, it did not begin in the 1990s!!! I would say it has become more apparent any time women "invade" what are perceived as male spaces. In the 1990s there was a definite backlash against feminism as women became more assertive and advanced more in the workplace. And all the "ladette" crap. Women liked football and drinking pints, shock horror.

I can't believe people who loved through the 60s and 70s said things were better then. Absolute bollocks. My mum recalls getting her bum pinched by work colleagues all the time at work. Wolf whistling everytime we walked past building sites. At school we had all sorts of shit.