Are your children’s vaccines up to date?

Set a reminder

Please or to access all these features

Parenting

For free parenting resources please check out the Early Years Alliance's Family Corner.

can dads be as good as mums...

39 replies

highness · 02/06/2010 11:52

My sister-in-law and the daughter of an older friend of mine are about to have babies and it got me thinking about how I would hate to start all over again and how I would do things differently if I had my time again. My daughters are 10 and 8 and, aside from all the practical advice on potty training, sleeping, etc, the biggest advice I would give to anybody about to have a baby, is don't necessarily give up work, like I did.

I have done lots of voluntary work over the years and little bits of work, and running various projects for my husband so I have not been idle, but ten years on, I am now trying to pick up the threads of a career and it is so hard because of the loss of confidence and self esteem. In fact, I ended up incredibly depressed and am still on anti-depressants. And then I started asking around my friends who haven't worked and found that this is such a familiar story _ so many of us feel worthless and without identity.

Then I came across a book (just recently published) which made so much sense, called Baby's Here, Who Does What? by Duncan Fisher (OBE). I would really recommend it to anybody with a new baby and people with older children aswell. So much of it resonated with my own life. For instance, he points out how a mother who immerses herself in children to the extent that there is little else in her life can suffer from low self-esteem. And there are lots of other things too, I always thought traditional roles were best for a relationship, but it seems this is not so ? couples who take this path are actually twice as likely to split up than couples who split earnings and childcare at least 60/40. It's so obvious when you think about it, because, as he points out, if one of you is doing one thing, and one the other, you gradually find that you have less and less in common with your partner's life ? and less understanding of what life is like for them.

If it was written by a woman, it could seem just another father-bashing book as it calls for men to play a much more active part in their children's lives and points out the benefits of this for all ? children who are less likely to turn to drugs or crime, mothers who get more support and help with the children, and the fathers themselves who form much closer bonds with their children that last a lifetime.

It brings up the issue too of whether fathers can be as good as mothers at looking after babies. This is such a tricky issue as I am one of those mothers who has always felt that the mother's bond is naturally just much stronger than a father's. When you've carried a baby for nine months, I just feel it is different. But reading this book made me realise something that I am still learning to remedy now ? 10 years on. I was one of those fiercely over-protective mothers who always felt that only I really knew our daughters' needs, but Fisher points out that in fact by always assuming this, you end up in danger of creating just that situation, by unconsciously pushing the father out and creating in him a sort of learned helplessness. This is so true, and exactly what I did in retrospect. In my defence, our eldest daughter has ADHD and was so exhausting and stressful that I became a neurotic mess and would always barge in and take control and take over because I wasn't making rational decisions anymore. But Fisher points out that in fact many mothers are better than fathers at looking after children simply because they spend more time with them, it is a matter of practice. But that fathers would be just as competent if they were given the chance and the opportunity. And that when fathers get sidelined in this way, they just retreat more into work or hobbies and get even less involved in family life. This is exactly what happened to us.

Don't get me wrong, my husband is a lovely and loving father and husband and we've both now recognised that this and have changed things. But one thing that I have really noticed since reading this book that really irritates me is that if we are out somewhere and he is with one of them and they are playing up (almost always), he will still call anxiously to me and make it my problem and ask me what to do. I used to feel like screaming and ended up just snapping at everyone, but have since gently pointed out to him that if the child who is playing up is with him, it is his problem and he has to deal with it. It is making a big difference to family days out ? he is more confident with the girls, I am more relaxed and the children are starting to recognise that they can go to him with a problem just as much as to me,

Anyway, I found so many lessons in this book that I really wish I had learned 10 years ago. Do read it, (it's an easy-to read and fascinating book). And do also think about one of it's other messages ? it's no selfish to put your relationship with your partner first, because having a stable loving relationship is the best thing you can do for your children.

I'd love to know what other mothers think about whether dads can be as good as mums...

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
LilRedWG · 02/06/2010 11:53

Of course they can - no brainer really.

Pootles2010 · 02/06/2010 12:00

Erm yes of course they can. I'd love to know how people think preganancy prepares you for being a parent - i'm heavily preg and i have to say, the bump hasn't told me anything about being a parent yet...

I do think that all the way through preg, everything is aimed at the mum, so the dad often has no idea. This is true for books, magazines, even midwives and doctors can be guilty of it. So the bloke takes a back seat, and suprisingly enough ends up not knowing as much! This is not good for anyone - not baby, not mum and not dad. My dp has been great so far, but he stil has a lot less idea when it comes to the more practical stuff - we had a scare and a trip to hospital recently, on the way back he was asking me 'so whats this clamping thing then' took me a little while to realise he was on about pre-eclampsia bless him

DuncanF · 02/06/2010 12:43

Pootles2010 - you are so right! Has your dp had any really good advice on being a good birth partner? He so needs to know the basics! (From July onwards hopefully every maternity unit will be distributing a pocket guide to being a birth partner - I'm writing it right now! There is a great book, Penny Simkin, The Birth Partner - very big, but very good!)

The issue of keeping men stupid during pregnancy is a real problem. Channel 4's One Born Every Minute showed men being dickheads during labour. It would be funny, except it increases the mother's pain if they are present and incompetent. But look at all the websites and books about pregnancy - they all peddle the same belief, namely that so long as mum knows everything, it's OK. It just isn't. When dad knows, everything is better - breastfeeding, mental health, the birth. Because babies are born into families and how the family operates matters.

I'm just about to do a phone in on BBC Wales on this topic and tomorrow/Friday the Jeremy Vine show on Radio 2. These are responses to articles in Guardian and Telegraph this week saying men should be excluded from pregnancy and birth. The strategy seems to be: keep them stupid, watch them fail, propose that they be kept out. This the fourth time this year the media has carried this story. Every time I am asked, I make the same point: men are present because we have been asked by our partners to be there!

I'm the author of the book Baby's Here! Who Does What? It tackles the issue of why 2/3 of parents' relationships get worse after a baby is born, mainly because mums and dads start living different lives; for many parents the division is like slamming into a brick wall at the end of paternity leave. I've been subscribing to Mumsnet ever since it was created - our two girls are 9 and 13!

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Pootles2010 · 02/06/2010 12:54

No he hasn't at all. His mate leant him a book which had about 2 pages of useful stuff in it - the rest was all jokey matey type stuff - ie 'now that your missus tricked you into this, this is how to avoid it'.

I have the 'what to expect' books (the pregnancy one, and the first year one) i will be asking him to have a look at the labour bits, to try to get more of an idea.

All my friends have stories of the blokes being pushed out - when my godson was born by c-section, he was taken out, handed to his dad who were then taken into a seperate room and then left on their own... only for the dad to get yelled at for not having bathed him + dressed him.

Rhian82 · 02/06/2010 12:55

This is something I feel quite strongly about - if the law was different, it would probably have been my husband rather than me that took six months off after DS was born.

Now we do struggle sometimes as I feel like I do know more about how to handle him, and it is me he turns to first ? not because of biology, but because I spent six months with him, and now have two days every week where it's just the two of us. DH more than pulls his weight though and spends lots of time with him (gives me lie ins both days at weekends so it's just the two of them etc), and probably changes nappies more often than I do!

LilRedWG · 02/06/2010 12:56

The Haynes Manual is quite good.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 02/06/2010 12:56

As I've said over and over and over on here, my husband and I split childcare 50:50. I took maternity leave till our daughter was 5 months (when we ran out of money; I'm the main breadwinner, he's a PhD student on scholarship), he did the majority of the next 5 months, and once she was mobile and he could no longer study with her around we had to put her in nursery two short days a week.

So now I do Sunday and Monday, he does Tuesday and Wednesday, and she's in nursery Thurs/Fri. Our weekend is Saturday. We both get 4 days of 'work' a week.

It works brilliantly. Even those first few months when I was at home, it was already obvious that the change in roles was making our interaction different. Part of that was her age, of course, but also we just found it harder and harder to share a dinner conversation; my big triumph of the day would be the fact that she took an hour nap not just 35 minutes, and he clearly didn't understand why that mattered enough to mention. And I didn't care about his meeting or whether he needed a new shirt when I hadn't brushed my hair in weeks.

Once he took over the same thing happened in reverse. He felt isolated, I felt impatient that here I was going to work all day and doing night feeds (still breastfeeding) and yet he couldn't manage the housework.

Once we split 50:50 it all worked, really. And it means that on Saturdays we automatically split the chores; we both know what goes in a nappy bag, neither of us has to be asked to do something because we're both so used to automatically assessing her needs, will we need to take a snack, when's her naptime and do we need to work around it, etc.

Can't recommend it enough, frankly.

Pootles2010 · 02/06/2010 13:00

I must say duncan, the bit on your website where it says 'divorce is less likely if fathers do the children' suprised me slightly

Pancakeflipper · 02/06/2010 13:06

if you have a shit mum then Dad can be an absolute star/ hero / best dad in the world.

For a long while in my life my mother wasn't around. My dad was amazing. His own turmoil wasn't apparent as he looked after us. He had little support. I was too young to realise why mum couldn't be with us and it's the best memories of my childhood.

SummerLightning · 02/06/2010 13:06

If anything my husband is better at it than me (my DS is 17 months). We split childcare responsibility 50:50 too, and it's great.

Didn't have too many problems on maternity leave, but am happier back at work. And he would definitely take extended paternity leave it was available (aren't they bringing it in?). Unfortunately we having second and last baby this August so he won't get the chance.

The only thing I would say is that if you do want your DH to help out properly and not do the whole "Oh I don't know how to do that.....you do it" sort of routine, you have to chill out a bit and let them get things wrong/different. Just because you've been on maternity leave doesn't mean your way is necessarily right. Obviously if you want to take more responsibility for child care than your DH then that is fine to dictate a bit more how things work but if you want it to be more equal you have to ease off on the control freak in you (speaks from experience). Can't expect your other half to want to help out if they are just getting told they are getting things wrong all the time!

SqueezyB · 02/06/2010 13:19

absolutely! Completely agree with the last post though, you have to let them take the reins and make mistakes sometimes to begin with - I remember hovering outside DD's bedroom door when she was tiny as we'd decided she needed to get used to DH putting her to bed and she was screaming her head off, it took all my willpower not to go in!

It was worth it as now I feel like we're completely on the same page, I can leave her with him all day and not feel like I have to tell him what to give her for lunch, what time to put her down for a nap etc - he knows it all just like I do.

Oh, and I'm a SAHM while DH works full time, so it's not just for parents who split childcare, they just need to do their share in the evenings/weekends.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 02/06/2010 13:23

SummerLightening, I read a quote the other day about SAHDs that said

"Don't expect to come home to a clean house, a cooked dinner and a glass of wine. You might well, though, come home to find that a retaining wall's been built, the rabid possum removed from the roof and your kids suddenly know how to play tennis"

SummerLightning · 02/06/2010 13:32

That's so true!

To be fair on my day off he rarely comes home to clean house, cooked dinner or glass of wine either.

DH has one half day off with DS a week. I frequently come home at 5:30 to find he's having nap not having had one all day. DH always says "Oh I tried but he wouldn't go to sleep, he just got tired just now"...hmmmm....they just rush around like lunatics all afternoon!
Once he was even crashed out asleep on the sofa!

Pootles2010 · 02/06/2010 14:21

See that annoys me a bit sorry, my dp is a better cook than me, and he's naturally a lot better at cleaning/tidying than me too. Actually i think its due to him being brought up by a house-proud control freak, wheras i may as well have been raised by wolves

minipie · 02/06/2010 14:38

My DH is definitely more domestic than me. When we have DCs, I have every confidence that he will be just as good at childcare as me, if not better - provided he gets equal practice and feels it is "his" responsibility not just mine.

Tortoise, I would SO love to share childcare 50/50 and each work 4 days a week.

The trouble is that that arrangement would make us financially far worse off than a more "traditional" arrangement of one of us working full time with long hours and one of us working very part time or not at all. It shouldn't be like that, but it is, at least for most people.

So unfortunately I suspect we will end up in the traditional model where he works much more and so does less of the childcare... and so is inevitably less practised/less comfortable with it.

luvumum · 02/06/2010 17:02

hi, Yes I know fathers can be just as competent as mothers as my husband is an excellent, loving caring father and husband! Thank you for recommending the book! I'm pleased for your that you life is much happier now

azazello · 02/06/2010 17:09

DH is a better parent than me although I'm much better at breastfeeding. I think a lot of it is done to personality - I get quite stressed and impatient. DH is very laid back so doesn't care if DD doesn't get dressed...It is noticeably getting more fun as the DCs esp DD get older though so I'm glad we seem to be starting from a goodish place.

Tortoise - your arrangement does sound brilliant.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 03/06/2010 02:44

Pootles, I agree really, my husband is an excellent cook as well, and does more housework than I do. It's a quote that amused me, though, because it's certainly true that the things he does with our daughter are different from the things I do. I get her to help bake muffins and hang out laundry, he ropes her into stacking firewood (ooh, she loves that job to bits, SO proud of herself, keeps trying to choose the biggest logs to carry) and gardening, and she really likes hanging around in hardware stores now. I think one of the main benefits of the situation is that she gets quantity time with two different approaches to parenting.

Minipie, yeah, it is hard. We took a massive financial hit to do it this way; before my husband quit his job to do the PhD/child care role, he was earning roughly double what I earn now. Both of us working 4 days earns us significantly less (and costs us more, because of childcare) than him fulltime and me SAH. The traditional arrangement, if I stayed home and he worked full time, would have meant we could afford two cars, a house in a nicer area, that sort of thing. Or we could've had children earlier - we put it off so that we could afford to do what we do.

tryingtoleave · 03/06/2010 03:48

Tortoise, that sounds great. I'm really hoping that one day dh and I will both be able to work part time,

thumbwitch · 03/06/2010 04:23

I think like everything that some dads are as good as mums, some dads are better than mums and some are worse.

DH started off saying he would like to be a SAHD - but since he resolutely refused to get up with DS in the night, did as few nappies as he could get away with, never bathed DS (despite numerous requests/offers on my part) and had to be asked/forced to do anything other than play with DS, I don't actually know that he would have coped with it very well. Obviously if he'd had to I expect he would - but chances are he'd do what he often does now - get his mum round to help.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 03/06/2010 04:36

I will never cease to be amazed by how many men choose 'getting out of nappy changing' - especially since it's so temporary - over 'retaining their partner's love, affection and respect'.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 03/06/2010 04:39

Oh, by the way, "highness", if you could let your friend Duncan know something please? If he wants to market his book, there are probably better ways to do it than to register a username and come on here to talk about it.

And if you are going to do so, please make it a bit more convincing. Nobody, ever, writes sentences like "Then I came across a book (just recently published) which made so much sense, called Baby's Here, Who Does What? by Duncan Fisher (OBE). I would really recommend it to anybody with a new baby and people with older children aswell." unless they're getting paid for it.

Come on, smarten the fuck up and stop trying to take us for mugs.

Sakura · 03/06/2010 06:09

Well...women can breastfeed and give birth, so I'd say they're better than dads at that.

As for over-all nurturing, after the breastfeeding stage, no I doubt there's much difference between men and women.

I feel very strongly that women should have first refusal to look after their babies, though, if they want to. Just because of the pain of child-birth really! If someone takes your prize away after that, it's cruel.

LOads of women (perhaps even the majority?) would rather share the work with the father, though,

if he's around...

But dads can be just as good as mums IMO

Sakura · 03/06/2010 06:21

Pancake, my experience was the opposite to yours. I had a shit mum...and that was that.
My dad was a far better parent than she was but didn't replace her IYSWIM. THis is why I've concluded that mothers and fathers each have their own unique relationship with their children that can't be replaced by the other parent.

Jamiki · 03/06/2010 06:48

DuncanF- I would love a copy of your guide before August. How can I get one?