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can dads be as good as mums...

39 replies

highness · 02/06/2010 11:52

My sister-in-law and the daughter of an older friend of mine are about to have babies and it got me thinking about how I would hate to start all over again and how I would do things differently if I had my time again. My daughters are 10 and 8 and, aside from all the practical advice on potty training, sleeping, etc, the biggest advice I would give to anybody about to have a baby, is don't necessarily give up work, like I did.

I have done lots of voluntary work over the years and little bits of work, and running various projects for my husband so I have not been idle, but ten years on, I am now trying to pick up the threads of a career and it is so hard because of the loss of confidence and self esteem. In fact, I ended up incredibly depressed and am still on anti-depressants. And then I started asking around my friends who haven't worked and found that this is such a familiar story _ so many of us feel worthless and without identity.

Then I came across a book (just recently published) which made so much sense, called Baby's Here, Who Does What? by Duncan Fisher (OBE). I would really recommend it to anybody with a new baby and people with older children aswell. So much of it resonated with my own life. For instance, he points out how a mother who immerses herself in children to the extent that there is little else in her life can suffer from low self-esteem. And there are lots of other things too, I always thought traditional roles were best for a relationship, but it seems this is not so ? couples who take this path are actually twice as likely to split up than couples who split earnings and childcare at least 60/40. It's so obvious when you think about it, because, as he points out, if one of you is doing one thing, and one the other, you gradually find that you have less and less in common with your partner's life ? and less understanding of what life is like for them.

If it was written by a woman, it could seem just another father-bashing book as it calls for men to play a much more active part in their children's lives and points out the benefits of this for all ? children who are less likely to turn to drugs or crime, mothers who get more support and help with the children, and the fathers themselves who form much closer bonds with their children that last a lifetime.

It brings up the issue too of whether fathers can be as good as mothers at looking after babies. This is such a tricky issue as I am one of those mothers who has always felt that the mother's bond is naturally just much stronger than a father's. When you've carried a baby for nine months, I just feel it is different. But reading this book made me realise something that I am still learning to remedy now ? 10 years on. I was one of those fiercely over-protective mothers who always felt that only I really knew our daughters' needs, but Fisher points out that in fact by always assuming this, you end up in danger of creating just that situation, by unconsciously pushing the father out and creating in him a sort of learned helplessness. This is so true, and exactly what I did in retrospect. In my defence, our eldest daughter has ADHD and was so exhausting and stressful that I became a neurotic mess and would always barge in and take control and take over because I wasn't making rational decisions anymore. But Fisher points out that in fact many mothers are better than fathers at looking after children simply because they spend more time with them, it is a matter of practice. But that fathers would be just as competent if they were given the chance and the opportunity. And that when fathers get sidelined in this way, they just retreat more into work or hobbies and get even less involved in family life. This is exactly what happened to us.

Don't get me wrong, my husband is a lovely and loving father and husband and we've both now recognised that this and have changed things. But one thing that I have really noticed since reading this book that really irritates me is that if we are out somewhere and he is with one of them and they are playing up (almost always), he will still call anxiously to me and make it my problem and ask me what to do. I used to feel like screaming and ended up just snapping at everyone, but have since gently pointed out to him that if the child who is playing up is with him, it is his problem and he has to deal with it. It is making a big difference to family days out ? he is more confident with the girls, I am more relaxed and the children are starting to recognise that they can go to him with a problem just as much as to me,

Anyway, I found so many lessons in this book that I really wish I had learned 10 years ago. Do read it, (it's an easy-to read and fascinating book). And do also think about one of it's other messages ? it's no selfish to put your relationship with your partner first, because having a stable loving relationship is the best thing you can do for your children.

I'd love to know what other mothers think about whether dads can be as good as mums...

OP posts:
Are your children’s vaccines up to date?
Jamiki · 03/06/2010 06:49

P.S. I'm in Australia.

Jamiki · 03/06/2010 06:52

Birth Partner Guide....

Jamiki · 03/06/2010 06:59

TortoiseOnTheHalfshell- Hows your DH going with the housework?

Well done with the 50:50 split, I'm in awe.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

nooka · 03/06/2010 07:15

My dh is a SAHD so I definitely think he is a great dad. I hated my stint at home, but I don't think I am a terrible mum, just different. dh does all the domestic stuff (I hate that too ). I think the one thing that would really help new fathers is to have similar support groups to new mothers, because so much changes when children come along and it can be very difficult to cope with. I found my fellow mums incredibly supportive, but dh had no one to share/moan with as none of our friends had children for a good five years or so. Just knowing things like knackered new mums often do not want intimacy, it's not a sign that they don't love you would be really helpful I think.

highness · 03/06/2010 21:31

Tortoise,
Actually, yes I know Duncan, but only since reading his book, and in fact I just found it so useful and so interesting, and also because he's an extremely nice guy and I'm an extremely kind person, yes sure I said I'd happily recommend it ? which is what I've done.

Do you have to be quite so unkind and rude? Does it harm anybody that I think there's a book out there that is really good, very interesting and might help a lot of people, or gradually start to change the way parents, dads, and employers think? Which in fact is much needed? Like I said, a lot of the thoughts in it have helped me, and interested me. In what way would I be taking you for a mug if I persuaded you to spend a fiver on it or whatever and you ? god forbid ? actually liked it? Or found a useful nugget in it somewhere that you could use? It's not as if I'm asking for your life's savings or trying to inflict something evil or horrible on you. You don't have to read it!

I do think you should think a little before you rush in with an angry, self-righteous response. I've already told you that I'm on anti-depressants and that I have a particularly challenging daughter. Do you really think I need unkindness added to that? When I come across a really good book on anger management, I'll let you know!

OP posts:
Sakura · 04/06/2010 02:44

highness, your OP came off like a marketing shpiel. The point is not that you're forcing us to read it; it's that it's disingenuous to market a book like this. I understand that the book has helped you, and because of that you want to recommend it, but if the author is your friend then what you are doing is advertising it for him for free, strictly speaking.
I'm sure you didn't realise this, or that you meant any harm, but I'm just pointing out how it comes accross.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 04/06/2010 03:31

Highness, it's a matter of disclosing your interests, as Sakura said. The rest of this is directed at Duncan at least as much as you, because if he's an author selling a product he really should know this stuff:

Viral marketing is very common, and various advertising agencies do pay people to log onto forums (like this one) and recommend products without disclosing that they're being paid. It's a real problem - not least because Mumsnet, like a lot of forums, is a business. It makes money from selling advertising. If you use the site to advertise a product in the way that you have, and you don't pay Mumsnet for the advertising space, you're being, at the very least, opportunistic.

You're not being paid, you claim, but you are a friend of the author, and you didn't say that upfront. The fact remains that you're using someone else's business as a platform for your own free advertising. It's not on.

And I have to say that reading an OP which comes across as scripted, and then having the author rush in all 'why what a coincidence, here I am', puts me off reading the book. Which may or may not be a shame, since I agree with the premise as described (as you'll see from my other posts).

I'll report this thread now and see if Mumsnet want to take issue. They might not care, but you might prefer that it's deleted anyway?

highness · 04/06/2010 09:29

Tortoise, Sakura,
Hmmm. Interesting points. Thank you for making them. I'm curious as I think you're making much too much of this, which is a shame as it's taken away from in fact an interesting debate. Do you never recommend things that you think are a good service or a place to go on the internet? For instance if someone says: can you recommend somewhere where my children will have a lovely day out? And someone says, have you been to Kew gardens or Alton towers, they've got a lovely new, etc, etc. Would you then expect Kew Gardens or Alton Towers to pay up? I have recommended my hairdresser, accountant and a garden company who did some work for me for instance on my children's school network because I was so impressed with them. People recommend things like that all the time in that way. It had never occured to me that recommending a book I had found interesting and useful was any different or would cause such controversy.

As for being co-incidental, no of course not. I emailed Duncan because I noticed that one of the second answers posted was talking about how all the information on having babies is directed at mothers and not at fathers, leaving men ignorant, which is exactly what he says, and I thought he would find this interesting to respond to.

I also find your comments about it sounding scripted sad. I'm an extremely open person and I simply write as I think. I'm also known for my inability to answer things or talk about things concisely, I'm one of life's musers. If people ask me questions, I give full answers.

Life is too complicated for me. I wish I was a cat in a good home. Or Sleeping Beauty during the sleeping part.

OP posts:
tabouleh · 04/06/2010 10:05

highness sorry if you are feeling got at - but - you are a new poster to MN (unless you are a name changer) - and you first post is to recommend this book!

You say "For instance if someone says: can you recommend somewhere where my children will have a lovely day out? " - the thing is no one has said "Can anyone recommend a book about involving DH more/preparing for who does what etc". You have just volunteered the info.

I expect this thread will be deleted as it is unauthorised marketing - it doesn't mean that the book is not good/your points and insights are not good.

What I would recommend is that you stick around, namechange, browse through some threads - contribute and ask questions.

I think this topic of who does what is a great one. DuncanF - speak to MNTowers and pay for some marketing time to get your word out.

Personally although my DH works full time outside the home and I work from home M,T,W with DS in nursery - his large involvement outside his work time stems from the following:

  • his innate sense of responsibility which carried him through difficult early days when he had not bonded with DS
  • the fact that I suffer from migraines and am every so often laid up completely necessatating input from him
  • the fact that I organised things to make it easy for either of us to care for DS

This last one is under everyone's control.

I am not "born organised" but I set everything up for DS in a really consistent way - eg where clothes/supplies were stored. Change bag restocked as soon as returned home - this means it is easy for either of us to take up where the other has left off.

Also try to let DH to make his own mistakes and respect different methods of doing things. DCs are very resiliant and they seem to understand that Mummy and Daddy do things in different ways.

highness - hopefully you can find some support here on MN re ADHD. Have you considered whether you have ADHD/ADD? I'm pretty certain I have adult ADD. Certainly reading round the topic has identified coping mechanisms etc.

Morloth · 04/06/2010 11:37

DH is a better parent than me. He is more patient, more caring just better. If they want cuddles and he is around they want him. If DS1 has a nightmare it is Daddy he calls for etc. This is fine with me, I adore my kids and am in no way detached but they are like 3 peas in a pod - the sight of DH on a Saturday morning with DS2 in his arms and DS1 drapped across his shoulders while they eat breakfast and watch cartoons is better than anything in the world to me (not least because it means I haven't rolled out of bed until 930ish.

Unfortunately for our kids he can also make about 5 times my salary.

The only thing he can't do is breastfeed. I have two boys though so not sure whether that has something to do with it.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 04/06/2010 14:37

Yes, highness, please do stick around. You sound like a really nice, articulate, thoughtful woman and I'd really enjoy talking to you some more.

As I said, some of my comments were directed at Duncan not you - because he, as the author, should really know better.

highness · 05/06/2010 11:46

Tabouleh ? yes, I have often thought in the last few years that I am prob ADD (not hyper, so without the H like you). Lose keys all the time, leave money in the fridge, lock myself out, always late to my intense annoyance, ridiculously forgetful. to my husband's horror, I have been known to leave front door open too. Like you, I have to make an extreme effort of concentration, lists etc to get me through day-to-day. am always last to give forms in at children's school. Hadn't occured to me I might get help through these forums for daughters aggression, may go look, thanks.

Morloth, yes isn't it the best thing in the world seeing children draped one each side of husband and the look of extreme contentment on their faces. Best of all if dog is across their laps too! Also like you, unfortunately my husband works in one of those kind of macho shouty professions where you just don't ask for part-time work and earns more than I ever could. He was brilliant when I was pregnant with second though as he was working shifts and changed every nappy of eldest that he could when at home because I had hideous morning sickness (for entire nine months) and for me nappy changing was instant chuck up. (Lovely!)

Tortoise (don't you just love all these names, mine of course is a rather predictable joke as daughters and I consider each other so bossy that 'yes your highness' is a common phrase but where on earth do you get yours? so weird. Tabouleh I imagine is a favourite dish and Morloth sounds like Lord of the Rings but don't think is??) Anyway, Tortoise, er, ... thanks... yes, I try to be as nice as I possibly can to people (don't always succeed) because most people I know have some element of sadness in their lives somewhere (some very close friends of mine have had huge tragedies in their lives which has changed the way I think and feel about life completely).

In haste, as going away for a couple of nights with husband which haven't done for two years and youngest daughter distraught even though my amazing wonderful mother will be looking after her and I need to go and comfort her.

OP posts:
OrdinarySAHM · 05/06/2010 15:28

Well actually, I don't think they are!

Some men might be just as good/better than some women, but I believe most women are better at it than most men.

Nature built women to have babies and feed them and made us (most of us) more sensitive and emotionally expressive and perceptive of other peoples' feelings/needs than men so we would be good at knowing what our children needed.

I am proud to be a woman, I don't think it is 'demeaning' to be good at childcare and housework, I don't want to be more like a man, and I am glad I am better at it than my DH, and that it is my job. I enjoy it. He should respect me for what I do just as I respect him for doing a stressful job outside the home and earning all the money. He is better at that than me and I wouldn't want to do his job.

I feel more sense of identity and more self esteem since becoming a mother because I value the job highly. If I went back to work outside the home now I think I would be more confident than before. If I can learn how to be a good mother, which is so hard at times, then I think I can get to grips with whatever job I went back to, providing I was reasonably qualified to do it.

tortoiseonthehalfshell · 06/06/2010 11:41

Who on earth suggested that housework was demeaning? I value both childrearing and housework highly as well, that's why I've made choices to be able to share them with my husband.

I was really just coming back to this thread to say highness, I really am sorry about the tone in my earlier post. I was out of line, and I do genuinely believe that you were just being helpful.

Do stick around, please!

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