when your baby is crying but you've covered everything...

[mogwai]

A question about letting your baby cry....sorry, long post

my dd is just coming up to 4 weeks old. We've been loosely using the "Baby Whisperer" techniques, ie Eat, Activity, Sleep. She's a good feeder, takes 4oz every three hours (formula)

It works well all day, though when we go on a trip out, she tends to sleep throughout, so sometimes gets more sleep during the day than she probably needs.

She has no problem being in her moses basket during the night. Strangely, so won't nap in it during the day. She doesn't seem to want the activity after night feeds. We dream feed her about 11pm and we go to her as soon as she stirs during the night (about 3am). She tends to feed very well and go straight back to sleep. We are up for about 30 mins on average.

We have a bit of a problem getting her down in the evening however. Our routine is generally food, activity, bath every other night, cuddle, bedtime. We put her down sometime around 7pm. She simply cries and cries when we put her down for this particular sleep. We know she's fed, clean, cuddled, not too warm or hot. She doesn't want the dummy, doesn't want more cuddles, will take more bottle (which we give as a last resort - she's putting on good amounts of weight) but immediately falls asleep on it. We've tried a musical mobile, we've tried a bit of lavender oil on a comforter at the foot of her basket.We've tried winding her more, but wind doesn't seem to be the problem (has wind at other times - obvious tummy discomfort - we are using infacol and colief). She looks knackered but can't be placated. I really don't think it's colic. DH is a doctor, he agrees.

We have concluded that she wants to go to sleep but doesn't know how to. We don't want to get into rocking her to sleep (and anyway, I tried it, it doesn't stop her on-off crying). We have started coming downstairs and sitting down, with the monitor on. The first night she cried for 15 mins on and off, nothing frantic, then she slept.

Last night, however, she cried for 30 mins. The crying escalated, unlike the previous night. She kicked off all her covers, I replaced them. My dh thinks we are doing the right thing. After all, if you try everything and nothing works, what else can you do? However, as her mum, I find the crying hard to ignore. I don't want to get her into bad habits, I don't want her to rely on us to get her to sleep every night (doesn't need it at other times). I'm concerned I won't have the will power not to pick her up when dh is working nights, he'll be gone when she goes to bed.

Would you let her cry and hope she learns how to get to sleep? 4 weeks seems very early, I know they don't really learn at this stage, so I'm not suggesting controlled crying, just at a loss what else to do.

As a newborn my dd used to breastfeed from 6pm to 10pm every night - not because she needed the milk but because she needed the cuddles and closeness. Eventually she would feed herself to sleep. It didn't cause bad habits, it didn't lead to her not being able to put herself to sleep, it didn't lead to her not having a regular bedtime when she was older.

Babies need you, and I'm sorry, but leaving a baby to cry at 4 weeks old is in my opinion quite a cruel thing to do.

Not now, but when I did have to it didn't bother them. I stopped quite early on, prob abt 3 mnths. maybe if you winded her in a different position?

thanks wigwambam. Your post was really useful until you said it was a cruel thing to do. If I was cruel, it wouldn't bother me, but the fact that I've posted about it means it clearly does.

No, I didn't say you were cruel; I said that in my opinion it's a cruel thing to do. Perhaps cruel is too harsh, but it's certainly not a kind thing to allow a 4 week old to cry. I'm not trying to be judgmental; I just think that at 4 weeks babies should get what they need.

I agree Wigwam bam - and we are not being judgmental - just wanting to offer advice to a new parent. It is easier if you have older children and can see how they eventually got into a good routine. It is just a phase you have to get through IMHO

btw, I don't think you have to run to a baby as soon as he/she cries neither. When the twins used to scream in the eves and nothing would settle them, I used to leave them for 5 mins at a time, so I could eat or something. I would be in earshot and as long as they weren't screaming fits, I would leave them to it. It didn't do them any harm, and actually wore them out a bit so they were easier to get off to sleep.

when my son was born.. daughter wasn't yet 2.. I used to put son in his cot an he would start to cry, I'd say to him... "I'll be right back..don't go away..(as if he could ) then I would sort out daughter.. by time I got back to son he would be asleep... I felt terrible at the time because I didn't comfort him.. but it didn't do him any harm.

somtimes babies cry because they are overstimulated and really just need to sleep - in that one case picking them up just makes things worse - so in that one case leaving them to cry is the only thing to do - although next time try and avoid the over stimulation.

As a mother of twins and another toddler - there were times when you just have to leave them to cry for a bit.

Having said that - if they are still crying 5 minutes later then you have to try something else (at that age).

Another thought - maybe try putting her to sleep on her front - babies often settle better on their fronts - something to do with the way the digestive tract works. If you can't cope with sleeping babies on their fronts then turn them onto their backs once they are asleep.

mogwai, I'm really sorry if my post upset or offended you. It was probably harsh and not what you needed to hear.

I wouldn't dream of suggesting that you were deliberately being cruel to your baby, and of course I understand that it bothers you, you wouldn't be posting at all if it didn't.

I was just trying to answer your question as best I could about whether we thought you should let her cry and hope she learns to get to sleep. At 4 weeks old, in my opinion, babies need reassurance, and if cuddling gives it then why not cuddle? This phase doesn't last all that long, and cuddling's nice for you too.

Agree with throckenholt. We had the same problems (and we did the babywhisperer thing too) think it is totally a overstimulation problem. Our ds was worse if we tried to cuddle him to sleep, from being first born he just liked to be left alone to get to sleep. We found swaddling worked well and generally in the evenings just kept everything very low key, we often took him out in his pram for a walk if he was having real problems getting to sleep or sang to him while he was swaddled until he calmed down then put him in his moses basket. It really was just a bad stage we battled through until probably at 3 months we started the bedtime routine and things settled down.

Hi Mogwai, sounds like you are doing really well with your little one for a first-time mum. I wish I had been as confident as you!!
How about, if you know she is a bit tricky to go down at 7pm, you take her for a walk in the pram. No bad habits being picked up and she may find the motion soothing. Once she is fast asleep you could leave her in the pram until she wakes for her next feed.
Most of all enjoy your baby and don't worry too much - it sounds like the three of you are doing so well.

apology accepted wigwambam. Your advice is truly useful and all the advice that has been posted will help me look at it differently this evening

IT's so overwhelming, having your first baby, isn't it? I'm sure that, if I have a second, or when this little one is older, I'll look back and wonder why I worried so much. I sometimes think that reading any sort of book, no matter how loosely you use it, just confuses you even more. I certainly couldn't do the gIna Ford thing, but I do think a loose routine as Tracey Hogg suggests is useful.

I just knew, instinctively, that I wasn't happy with her screaming last night. Grumbling a bit, yes, on-off crying for a few minutes, yes. Both have produced sleep when we tried them earlier in the week. In the end, I felt she tired herself out by screaming last night, and I'm not happy with that at all. Funny this instinct thing, I think men do have it, but it's not the same as what I feel as her mum, I'm sure

bugsy2 - I think is disagree with no bad habits picked up by using a pram. I spent ages with ds1 rocking in a pram to get him to sleep - he associated the motion with falling asleep.

It wasn't until ds2/3 that I realised that overtiredness was the main cause of my problems (in hindsight) with DS1 - the pram helped deal with it once we got to that stage, but it didn't stop the situation arising in the first place.

Don't be defensive - we have all been there and it is absolutely horrible. But there are advantages to having a second child in that you realise that a/most things are normal and b/they will pass.
I would say a 10pm bedtime for a 4 week old is very normal. You can try all sorts of soothing tricks - white noise, rocking, shhhing, swaddling etc etc - I think all are preferable to leaving a tiny baby to cry for any sustained length of time.
As I said before, I think your instincts are absolutely right here and normal and natural.
Also, capitalising is simply emphasis. Who says it is shouting? It clearly isn't shouting, it's capital letters!

Cross posted!
Do try swaddling and shhing - both can be very effective IME. Also reducing my expectations helped me a lot.

throckenholt, I'm going to bath and then feed her tonight. No activity after the feed (will be one hell of a grumpy bathtime though !) and try that for a couple of nights. I really think it's overtiredness.

My cousin has a son who will only go to sleep if he is being driven around the neighbourhood in the car . I think they began that routine as a way of placating his evening crying. Obviously anxious not to repeat similar tactics, but will consider a walk in the pram occasionally, rather than every night.

I wonder at what age they begin to make associations? I'm thinking she's too young to make bad habits such as associating bedtime with rocking or a walk in the pram, as some of you have suggested, but then again, she clearly has the ability to make associations already - opens her mouth when she hears the bottle lid being taken off.

Very interesting, raising a child, and very tricky!!

aloha - side issue - generally in email or on fora caps is accepted to be shouting - bold is emphasis - back to topic....

i don't know if it makes any differnce but for the first 3 months DD used to cluster feed from 5pm to about 10ish .. so she was feeding every 40 mins or so I would say (she was bf).. maybe you could try a little more milk .. I think they try to 'tank up' for the upcoming night

oo get you blackduck .. fora indeed

totally agree with aloha. mine didnt actually go to bed at 7 until about 6 weeks ago (2.5 mnths), althouh my older two did at 6 weeks. The twins still love being swaddled. White noise (static or hoover) and rocking was really good when they were younger too.

She is 4 weeks old - too young to "learn" anything. he brain simply hasn't developed that bit yet. She is working on instinct, and her instinct is to be close to a parent.

Do whatever works and don't worry about a bad habit she may or may not have in the future. I know you don't want a 18 month old who can't learn to sleep - but you don't want a massively distressed 4 week old now either.

One thing that is developing is her response to stress. Every time she cries and you leave her her body floods with cortisol. There are studies that have shown that this stress response is set early on and will not help her cope with stress later one, making her more anxious. Being cuddled now will honestly be the best thing for her.

First three months with a new baby is hell, but it does pass........

You're doing far better than I was at this stage with my first, I think I was still doing the 'why won't he sleep. he hates me, I'm useless' thing. I used to comfort myself with the knowledge that I could always get him adopted by someone who knew what they were doing!

Re the crying thing, all mine used to do this and we never figured out why. It wasn't colic (no drawing up the legs, wind etc) but every evening we'd have a big crying jag. When you've done everything you can do, all you can do is let them get on with it really. I used to dim the lights, lay them on the sofa and watch TV with the subtitles on. I'd sit next to them with my hand on them so they could see/feel me, but it wasn't as exciting as being rocked or cuddled iyswim. It does tend to tail off by 12 weeks, so try and keep that goal in mind

aloha, capital letters is shouting on mumsnet, I believe. Actually can't be arsed getting into a debate about it, but I only know that capitals is shouting cos I've seen other people say that on this site lots of times.

I don't think I'm being defensive at all. I'm pretty confident and chilled out, just flummoxed by the evening thing. Think I'm doing a good job actually, for four weeks! I just always feel reluctant to ask for advice on this site, cos in my experience, not matter how you word your query, someone always starts typing in capitals, being sarcastic or judgemental or saying FFS. There are also lots of people who don't read yur post properly, or state the obvious. Then agin, for every one poster like that, there's always twenty posters who come up with great useful ideas and give you the reasurance you need. See advice on this thread as example!

I'm not accusing you specifically of any of this, I'm just explaining why you might think I seem defensive. The capital letter thing always makes me think..."oh...here we go!". As suzywong would probably say "this thing has now kicked off".

btw, whoever suggested the swaddling and shusshing....she hates being swaddled and seems to scream louder over the shusshing!! I wonder if she can out scream the hoover???

both mine hated swaddling .. remember having an argument with the nurse in hospital when DS was born cos he liked being spreadeagled and she tried to swaddle him even though the temp in maternity unit was unbearably hot .. I won .. he cried until she let him out

have you tried putting a fan on (not directed at her) .. it creates a little white noise?

though still think the let her stay with you and give her milk approach might be the easiest solution

How do you swaddle her? It does have to be really tight to work IME. THough of course, nothing works for every single baby.
Evening crying is really, really normal though. And feeding lots.