That Alder Hey programme last night- smoking outside, just as bad as inside

[suwoo]

DH is a fairly heavy smoker- at least 20 Embassy a day, but he smokes outside, so thats ok

I was so glad that he watched that programme with me last night, as to see the nurse saying that the effects of passive smoking are as bad whether they smoke inside or out might finally hit home with him.

I have told him that if he doesn't stop, he will be as bad as that horrible scrote, who won't stop because he didn't believe the Doctors/government or whatever shite it was he was spouting.

hmmmm But the lancet article doesn't talk about the effects of the relatively high cotinine levels? Are high cotinine levels associated with poor health? Also the article says that cotinine levels were lower where the parents believed that smoking could adversely affect their children's health - ie. those likely to be telling the truth re smoking outdoors.

Thanks for the excerpt- there still seems to a lot of "coulds" and lack of real conclusion- why did non-smokers children have any cotinine at all? Were the parents observed to ensure that they did in fact smoke well away from the children (my dad smokes in his own house, never ours)? I'm still a bit suspicious- few extraneous variables seem to have been taken into account for me to be 100% convinced.

In any case, again, the message to hardened smokers is that you may as well smoke around the child, then, if you are going to continue smoking (many parents/ grandparents won't be sufficiently motivated to give up entirely based on this evidence)

Are there other studies out there, comparing other factors as well?

Sorry, didn't mean to run from my thread but had to pop into work. I see it has progressed interestingly since I left. I agree with the poster that said whatever the nurse has to say that will make the parents give up is fine. Lets hope it works on my DH.

Maybe now, fandango, you can see the points that I was making and that I was not joking.

I cannot get over the mother giving her son 2 weetabix and then a huge dinner too

How she thinks she is not over feeding her child is beyond me

That 5 year old 'walking' my my kids laugh so hard I thought they would fall off their chairs His mother needs to have her hand forced. He'll be dead soon otherwise.

yes the little chubby lads mum was in TOTAL denial but the mum that raised my hackles a bit was Kaitlyns mum - after the tooth removal - saying how 'hard' it was going to be for her and kaitlyn whilst feeding her cupcakes etc

the pain of having teeth removed and the GA are such that the Mum should feel shite and start acting like a parent instead of never saying no

Thanks for the link TMMJ.

I think that-regardless of editing or the reasons behind what she said-to question and ignore a medical professionals advice, is really just living in denial. To pretend that smoking is ok because it is done outside is really just trying to find a way to make yourself feel better. If you don't smoke, when you pass a collegue or friend etc who does-u know straight away,and for the smells etc to still be strong surely suggest particles linger.

I'm sorry,I don't mean to be so harsh but to hear people judge the woman who fed her child too much and those who ruined their kids teeth then go on to defend smokers or deny passive smoking outside is harmful-even after evidence (do a google search for more) has been provided gets my goat.

There are definitely older people who can't/won't give up.but for a parent to continue smoking is totally selfish,there are so many ways to help. Ignore the 'possible' health problems of your kids-what about the health problems you will get?

. Also,this was not a personal attack on anyone-just a rant and what I felt like saying to the tv but couldn't!

"to question and ignore a medical professionals advice, is really just living in denial." - no its not - its recognising that sometimes medical "professionals" give out shite advice which needs to be taken with a pinch of salt??

Yes-perhaps if we weren't talking about passive smoking?so this is the first time you've heard that smoking outside is just as bad?

And-why would you risk it?I guess that's my main gripe!

Just watching on iplayer and the nurse does say it is better than smoking inside but still harmful.

I'm watching it now and I have to say I don't think Kaitlyn's mum was doing bad. As she said you can't deny all treats. She admitted they have one treat per day and I presumed cake and ice cream was the treat that day.

Much better than what was happening before imo.

As the Lancet article notes - they were relying on parents self-reporting that they only smoked outside. Since that probably isn't very reliable (lots of parents who do occasionally smoke around their children will lie to someone interviewing them and say they only ever smoke outside), I don't see how conclusions can be drawn from it.

"Hair cotinine concentrations were strikingly similar whether the parent smoked indoors or outside. Cotinine concentrations were lowest in children of non-smokers, and in those whose parents believed that cigarette smoking could adversely affect their child's health.
?Indoor or outdoor smoking was not a good predictor of ETS since the cotinine levels were basically the same?, says Groner, adding that a number of variables could account for these results. ?The parents may not have been telling the truth, or they may allow visitors and step-parents to smoke indoors. And even if they're doing just a little bit of indoor smoking, poor ventilation will add to it?."

Haven't watched the programme yet but will later.
However got a couple of Q's from what you said.

How does a 5 year old get to the point where they are eating that much food? My 18 month old has just started refusing the rest of her meals. She will eat at least half but is leaving some and does not want it at all. did his mum force feed him?

How old is the little girl who had her teeth out? It sounds like a lot of teeth fpr anty age child.

The smoking outside; can anyone remember the stories of asbestos poisoning where it was the wives who had washed the overalls or the kids who had hugged daddy when he had finished work? smoking is bad wherever you do it but obvs indoors next to kids is worse.

smoking used to be ok cos it was just themselves/you that it was effecting - health wise. But now it is such a shock to realise that the habit actually effects your family living with you, not just the children but husbands and wives will also have their health effected evwn if the smoking is away from them but then the smoker comes back to the roomand contaminates the air.

It is really frightening, it's not just pg woman smoking that can harm their unborn child but snokers everwhere coming into contact

no one really wanted to believe that smoking caused lung cancer, now we just accept thet fact that it does, in 20 years we will hav e accepted that smokers clothing is toxic

I read the OP earlier at work but didn't have chance to post.

Must admit, my first thought was: well, why have they just banned indoor smoking - you may as well smoke indoors as out if it causes the same damage (note - I am not a smoker). It would be interesting to see how much lower the cotinine concentrations were in the non-smokers' kids though.

I'm not condoning any smoking around kids by any means, but I do agree with earlier points that this isn't necessarily going to be the motivation a determined/hardened smoker needs to stop. Will it just give them a get out of jail free card?

Or smoking in anyone's space for that matter.

And while I was x-posting...

I agree with Ivykaty - one day we will take the effects of passive smoking for granted. We just have to relearn our mindsets and behaviours I guess.

I still find it hard to understand why anyone would smoke, it's just such a weird thing to do. So you get dried leaves, wrapped in paper, and you set fire to it and such up the smoke. It costs a lot and makes you smell but it's apparently worth it. Mind you, most things we do make no sense so I don't know why I'm surprised.

The thing that came across with all those cases last night was a lack of education. The mum of the very large 5 year old, clearly doesn't know that small children need smaller plates etc. She also clearly had absorbed the 'five a day' message at the expense of understanding any other nutritional ideas. To her, it's 'all healthy stuff'.

But it's hardly surprising, if you don't actually read a lot and get most of your information from TV and advertising. There is no food manufacturer saying 'this food is shit, only have it once a week if you want to be healthy' but there are plenty of messages about what's 'good for kids' of dubious value.

After all, a president of the USA once considered ketchup to be a vegetable (of course tomatoes are fruit, but that's beside the point!)

but it is hard to accept why anyone would do anything to excess, over eat, gambling, alchol, cocaine, heroin all adictive and all kill and seriously effect those loved ones around you.

Ciggies are more addicitive than heroin, have you not noticed ex heroin addicts still smoke not all but a very large percentage of them. It is not the lesser of two evils its the fact that they can kick the illegal heroin but not the legal fags

But why do people start smoking - most people seem to start in their teens, but it's a horrible habit to start, surely you cough and you vomit?

yes the coughing is due to all the disguting things they add to tabacco, why do peopel start gambling, drinking or taking drugs -often thier friends are doing it, someone is doing it and some go back for a second try and get hooked - it is really addictive enough to have two fags and get hooked, i bet most people that smoke wish really that they had never started - then there would be no need to try to give up

then you see people like this smoke and wonder why he only smokes a few a day but can't kick the habit....

What baffles me is why these parents agreed to be on the programme - they must have known that the entire country would be pointing at them and saying "Look at the crap parents killing their children!" (with some justification).

If they're doing it so that they can be an example to others, who will avoid their mistakes, then well done to them, because I couldn't be that self-sacrificing.

Dilys - I suspect it's rather like Wife Swap in that it seemed like a good idea at the time . They've probably taken an entire day with each of these families, interviewing them and then edited it down. In 99.9% of the footage they probably were eminently sensible and erudite, and yet that's not good telly so that won't be the bits they use for the programme.

Just watched the programme on iplayer and whilst I think the journalism was quite lazy and badly edited it did make me think that highly paid professionals such as Dr Didi and colleagues have a much greater role to play in providing specific advice, measurable plans and support to effectively change beliefs and behaviour for parents of children such as Leon rather than the nebulous "more exercise" that came from the consultation we saw.
It is blatantly obvious to all who saw the small snapshot what the problem is(overfeeding and parental denial) and he didn't get to that size overnight. As other posters have said, surely her behaviour could be considered abusive.