Why can't DCs play alone longer?

[Solo2]

When I was a child, I would spend several hours a day either playing completely on my own or with my bro. and sis. Often, this would be in the garden but it might also be in the house, perhaps reading books for hours on end, drawing, writing stories etc.

Now I've got almost 9 yr old twin sons who seem to have the attention spans of a gnat and who plead and plead for me to play WITH them. DS1 struggles to play alone at all and whilst he'd love to be out in the garden more, as his twin (who's sedentary, slightly Asperger's-like and rather incompatible) won't come out to play, DS1 retreats back into the house.

The one and only thing that will keep them both occupied for any length of time is using their PCs. DS2 uses his a bit more creatively to write synopses of TV shows he invents, stories and endless lists of whatever his current topic of interest. He also watches endless iPlayer clips of various TV programmes.

DS1 plays children's computer games on the net - not the violent sort but games nonetheless. He also looks at pop music videos, watches children's programmes on iPlayer and sometimes makes cards/ designs.

Their tiny attention spans and need for me to play with them all the time long pre-dates getting PCs, so I can't blame computers...although maybe PCs have exacerbated this?

However, I'm sure I'm not the only one who sometimes 'uses' their PC interest to get some time to complete a task, without interruption or do something I want to do for a little while.

Of course I'm torn in two now because I'm desperate for them to be able to occupy themselves for longer periods, so I can do stuff I need to do (I'm a single mum running my own business f/t single-handedly)....BUT...I feel incredibly guilty that the only way to get this, is to let them be on PCs.

There've been a few other things that occupy them a little longer - mostly slightly risky and therefore 'exciting' - though I'm always right in the vicinity - like tending their own minute garden fire, melting candle wax over a candle flame, hammering nails into wood. But this attracts DS1 more than DS2 and of course it needs then to be a good weather day, so we're all outside.

However, the other day, they spent about 12 minutes flitting from one activity (like fires and hammering) to the next and then either wanted me to play or to go back in and use their PCs.

How can I help them to find other all-absorbing things to occupy themselves with (when we can't have playdates I mean), as I did as a child? Is it 'too late' now they've become accustomed to PCs and all their uses? How can I manage their incompatibility and DS1s need to be with either twin or I wherever he is and whatever he does?

I've recently got them doing a bit of lego and playing cards, simple boxed games (they usually hate these) and charades - but they won't at all do these unless I participate and if they try to play alone, it never ever works, as they're so incompatible.

Why can't they be more like I was as a child and are PCs (and thus me giving them one) to blame?

I don't think we really were all that different: behind those hours of playing creatively in the garden lay other hours of whingeing and moaning that we have probably forgotten about but that our parents may remember all too well. Perhaps one difference is that we get more annoyed about it, because we as parents have higher expectations of me-time, and a tendency to feel guiltier than our parents probably did.

Thanks for your thoughts, Cory. I have a different experience to you however. My mother (SAHM) would get on all day with her own stuff - cooking (from scratch - each meal), gardening, her allottment, domestic tasks. I don't remember her playing WITH us after we were about aged 4 or 5. My father would take us out on trips at w/es, to give her some space but that wouldn't happen always and the long, long school holidays (we only went away a few times right across my childhood), were mostly spent with us playing dawn to dusk independently.

I see what you mean though about the conflict between needing me-time and yet the guilt (I'm sure my parents felt no guilt if they weren't entertaining us all the time!).

I know of several peers of my sons who - according to their parents, play alone for hours on end...some will make air fix models alone and unaided, some will read, some will play in their gardens....When one friend had my twins around on a one-off occasion, she particularly noticed that they kept coming inside to find her, ask her things, expect her to be there, where her own DS would play for hours on his own in the garden or with older sister.

ONE element might be that many of my sons' peers have an older sister who occupies them or other older sibs who are just 'there', hanging out and thus providing a general 'community atmosphere'. But not all are like that. Some are 'only' children.

I often feel like I don't do nearly enough 'playing with' my DSs and yet in some ways probably play with them a lot more than others. These Easter hols, I feel as if I've played endless games of badminton, football, throw and catch, tag...and STILL the twins want more! They keep saying endearing but psychologically guilt-inducing things like, "But we want to be with YOU, Mummy! We LOVE you! PLEASE!!!!!!!!"

Can anyone give me an idea of how long their DCs might be expected to occupy themselves independently, aroung age 9 and also what exactly might they 'do' that is absorbing enough - other than anything related to PCs/ consoles/ screens?

OP, you have my sympathy. My DSSs, and especially DSS2, are truly frightful at occupying themselves for extended periods. They have been brought up surrounded by adults who entertained them and structured their time constantly, and were not allowed to "make a mess".

IMVHO you need to unplug the TV and computer and get your children to do things that require manual skills.

I know, I know, Bonsoir. How do I make that transition though with the weeks and weeks of them complaining and fighting and demanding their screen back and STILL get on with my work/ domestic tasks?

I hoped that my own interest in working with wood/ gardening/ arts and crafts/ writing/ drawing would rub off on them but they won't do it without me. Are they still too young? They're not quite 9 yet?

Can you send them to some sort of class(es) to teach them skills? My DD goes to an art class, which is just great as it fires her with enthusiasm to practise her newfound techniques when she gets home.

One of my DSSs' big issues is that they lack skills, and are now getting too old (at nearly 15 and 13) to learn them from scratch in a class.

Solo, is your Mum still around? Can you ask her?

Only, I have the same memories as you, but on the other hand you say your father would take you guys out to give her space, so you can't have been that independent, can you?

Actually, you know what, I bet this is the answer to all your guilt! I'm going somewhere with this I promise:

I mostly remember playing on my own, too. I was a bookworm, so read for hours and hours. I remember my brother (2.5 years younger) and I playing all day, making deals where I'd play cars with him if he'd play elaborate lego games with me. I remember sneaking out of my window to sit on the roof. I even remember sitting in front of the TV, bored stupid because nothing good was on but too idle to go and do something else.

I remember playing with Mum too, but only on weekends, and only the 'structured' activities (certain crafts, certain outings). Most of my childhood memories don't involve her.

And yet, if I search my memory, I remember longing for her. I remember how pleased I was when she would sit and play a card game with us. I remember being happy just to have her attention (she was very loving, but also very busy, a single working mum).

So I bet I whinged and whined and complained and needed structure just as your sons do. Until I was a teenager and we got a computer for the first time.

This, finally, is where I'm going with this:

I probably had a crap attention span. I probably whined and whinged. I definitely wanted more of her all the time, as much of her as she could give and more, and it was never enough. Like your sons - I loved her, I wanted more of her. And yet my childhood memories aren't of that, they're of the independent stuff.

So, I agree with Bonsoir, you can probably ignore them a bit more with a clear conscience. They are needy now, but they won't remember a Mum who wasn't there, they'll remember the adventures they got into without you.

Thanks Tortoise..... My mother died 5 yrs ago and my father 2 yrs ago, so I can't ask them about what it was like.

Yes, the whole reason I had children was to be there for and with them....it's just that I sometimes need a little time for me or to complete a task from beginning to end and it's almost a decade now of not having this!! - much as I love them!

Actually, my sibs and I had more freedom to wander than I can give my sons. From around age 9, my elder sis. and I would roam in the local woods together for ages, I think....despite several encounters with 'flashers' and local youths - that didn't really phase us!

However, the traffic where I live with twins, is just far too fast and frequent to let my sons out alone and the garden - albeit a third of an acre, so not tiny, doesn't enamour them for long.

Yes, Bonsoir, the twins frequently go to an Art related hol club for a few days, like today and leanr various skills but never ever ever would do this at home, unless I joined in with them ALL the time.

Another factor might be that one DS has mild asperger's traits, making him that little bit even more incompatible with his twin, compared with sibs who just have personality differences. DS1 would love to engage in lots of different ordinary boyish stuff with DS2 but DS2 spends hours in his own self-absorbed world - currently obsessed with dr Who and also Soap Operas and DS1 understandably find this boring and difficult to relate to.

Solo, I didn't mean that our parents actually spent lots of time playing with us, more that they wouldn't feel guilty about it, and hence less bothered by any whingeing. I certainly remember being told off for not leaving my mother alone- but I don't suppose it worried her that much iyswim.

Oh, I see what you were getting at. Sorry Cory. Was in rush when replied. You're right that our parents wouldn't feel guilty about not playing with us.

What do other people's DCs like to do that occupies them for ages on end, without need for adult input (apart from screens related stuff!)?

No, you are right! I was whinging talking to my dad about this the other day.

I remember my gran looking after me 2 days a week while mum worked. While I was there, she went "up the street"- butcher's/ bakers/ greengrocers/ betting shop (!)/ chemist etc. In every shop she stopped and nattered to folk. If I tried to get her attention, she whacked me round the head gently without so much as interrupting the flow of her conversation! When we got home, she gave me my lunch, then she got on with the washing (twin tub), cleaning, cooking etc. I played outside in the summer, making "soup" and potions from grass and leaves, and inside if it was rainy, with an upturned stool, which was either a pram or a car, depending on how I felt. She also had a dog, which I adored.

I loved being around my gran. She didn't actively focus her attention on me and certainly never played with me- she was far too busy. But I just loved being around her, and felt secure and happy there. Similarly when I was at home with mum- most of the time, I did my own thing. I remember occsions where mum played with me, but they were special occasions- like when she taught us all to play peever, or taught me to ride a bike. For the most part, we didn't want adults around when we were playing.

NOW my kids seem to want us around all the time. They are apparently incapable of entertaining themselves, despite having a mind-boggling amount of toys/ games/ equipment. I am always trying to encourage them to go off and play on their own, as I feel they are missing out. And there are 3 of them as well- there was only one of me!

Don't know what the answer is, though

I think we feel too much guilt as mums are conditioned to these days.

My sister and I had to amuse ourselves for hours as kids as we lived on RAF camps and often didn't know other children( we moved a lot).My mother read a lot,cooked etc but left us to it. I don't remember resenting her but I do remember summer holiday boredom. However the games my sister and I played I can remember to this day,we kind of went into our own world and we read a lot too.

I was all set for starting a similar thread as was dreading the hols for similar reasons however something very strange has happened. My twin boys are 6, dd5 and I've just relaxed a bit on letting them play outside.

We go for a walk daily to get the edge of things and limit the sillies then they've just been riding their bikes,scooters,go-carts etc outside the house with all the neighbourhood kids.It's been bliss I haven't had them bickering,coming in or anything. In fact I'm getting a tad bored. They haven't touched their toys or the mountain of craft stuff I got in ready to do battle.

The thing is there are kids of all ages,it's a safe road(we're in Devon) and I'm not actually with them,I leave the door open so I can hear them,call out if it goes quiet,sometimes have a cup of tea and watch etc. If I was actually playing with them there would be constant tell telling,winging,demands etc,etc. I think the key is freedom away from me and other kids to knock about with but not sure how you can give it if the road isn't safe.

I do think this situation is worse with twins as they have a readymade playmate the same age.They simply are not used to ever being on their own and it's tempting to use annoying your twin as entertainment instead of actually finding something to do.

I have limited screen time to an hour, it is hell to enforce but it does help. I also threaten homework if the drifting around,bickering gets too intense. Could you give them an hour of screen time 1st thing to get an hour of work in then take them out for 2 hours to tire them,come back for lunch. Then it'll be just the afternoons to sort out,could you literally shut the office door for some of it and leave them to it,is the garden secure/safe?

I don't know how you do it-running a business and twin boys .You really must give yourself a pat on the back,both are bloody hard work.

That reminds me of something, Joolyjooly...When I was PG, I read the book, The Continuum Concept and it was all about letting children just 'be' and letting them watch us adults getting on with normal life, work etc, rather than focusing on them at all. This made sense to me (although other parts of this book don't resonate with me).

However, there are several factors that don't allow for this - a complete lack of a 'tribe' around us is one. We have no family who we see regularly (sis and bro and their families don't really have interest in meeting up ever...parents dead...no ex or his relatives at all).

All the twins' friends live in disparate areas and also each twin has the sort of friends who are completely incompatible with the other twin and friends. So having a bunch of children round doesn't work at all, or even two others!

So it's always (except by special arrangements for playdates etc) just me and the twins alone.

Secondly, there's nowhere safe for my DCs to play outside the garden/ home cos of the busy road. Once or twice, they were 'invited' to play in what's actually a privately owned field backing onto our garden, by trespassing gangs of children. However, it was just a ploy to have some victims to bully - as the other children go to the same school (not my twins' one) and are a closeknit gang and were absolutely horrible to the twins.

Since then the field owner has forbidden trespassing - which we're glad about and I never liked the twins to trespass anyway. The gangs still roam there and call out rudely over our fence and stare but we try to ignore them.

In my home neighbourhood, as a child, there was a cul de sac nearby where lots of the local children played and some woods behind that too. We were bullied by some but OK with others - as there were sufficient kids to make a big enough mix. However, we three mostly played with each other anyway, roaming far and wide to the woods, the park etc.

So lack of a safe free environment and a good 'tribe' of mixed aged children is a big difference for my DCs.

Here is where I confess that, unless I stop them proactively, the twins will often spend most of the day, on and off, at PC or screens, doing a variety of activities - but all on screen . Not every day of course but on a typical school day, PCs go on from 6.30am till 7.30am (when we leave for school. Back on again for about 2 to 3 hrs at night. At w/es it may be up to 6 hrs on and off all day and is the default activity they return to on coming home from anything else, on waking, before bedtime etc etc.

I attempted, feebly, restricting screen time to 2 hrs a day. It was Hell! for all of us. They fought, were bored, hung around me, provoked me. I also have tried restricting it to early in day and late in day with a long several hrs break inbetween. But then I can't get any space to do even the most basic domestic tasks, like cook a meal, clear the kitchen, do laundry etc.

The one thing of course that stops PC time is me taking them out or me playing with them. But I can't do this all the time and so that's why I need to find ways of making non-screen activties, carried out independent of me, very attractive.

DS1 would quite happily do other stuff alone for a bit, provided it was 'risky/ dangerous' but of course there's a limit to what I'd let him do at this age. DS2 is more risk averse and if they won't do something together then DS1 comes back to me for company...

Like you, Mila mae, my sister, brother and I played lots of interactive imaginary games together, made up gangs as a threesome, codes, languages....but my twins, as I said before, are so incompatible. they'll do this for a little bit but Asps-like DS2 HAS to be in charge/ in control or he won't play and DS1 wants to do things, understandably, in a more ordinary way, as he might with a more typical peer. So it just doesn't work for long enough.

Further suggestions please of attractive activities for almost 9 yr olds to do alone???

It does sound difficult to find a solution in your situation. I agree with you about being a dc. When I was the age of your twins, my mother did not play with us at all. If I was 9, my sister was 10, my brother 5. I suppose having a sister so close in age who I mostly got on with, we could manage without my mother joining in or orchestrating games.

I suppose you have looked at sport. I wondered if you could have a basketball hoop up in the garden and get them to join a basketball club if there is any such thing available. It would motivate them to practice at home because they would want to do well at the club.

Sport generally would be good I think. Anything 3 x week for a good solid hour's running about. Basketball is just handy because you can have a hoop at home. I suppose badminton could work and a net wouldn't cost much.

wow that sounds hard - i tear my hair out with ds at my heels all the time and he´s only 3.. if its still like this in 6 yrs I will feel your despair! i´m sorry i don´t know what to suggest, can´t you just stand your ground and tell them no, you can´t play with them? They will eventually get so bored they will find something to do, surely? or you could offer them a choice of going off to find something to do by themselves or helping you e.g. peel veg/ wash dishes/ hang out laundry etc? That´s what my mum used to do if i said i was bored!

I definitely did not play with my mum at that age, no way, I don´t really remember playing with her at all though she was a sahm and I imagine when we were small she did.

Thanks for the ideas but unfortunately, DS2 is slightly dyspraxic and totally unable to do coordinated sports, whilst DS1 is pretty talented at anything involving hand-eye-coordination! - Yet another incompatibility!

So when we play badminton in the garden or catch ball, DS1 and I will constantly have to compliment DS2 for 'trying' although he tries and usually fails, poor thing. DS2 blames us if he fails to make a catch/ get a shot. I play down praise to DS1 who is better than me at sports but it doesn't work if DS1 and DS2 try to play a sport like these alone together. DS1 gets sick of having to encourage DS2 all the time and still being 'blamed' by DS2 for DS2s failures.

So then DS1 wants to play alone with me - hence yet another need for me to be involved. DS2 - who could do with the practice, will join in with us sometimes and I try to encourage this but it's just not something they can do without me there.

They both have horse-riding lessons once a week, as it's the only sport DS2 will tolerate and even enjoy - but of course I have to be there and there's no ideal private pony they can gallop away on, whilst I'm busy in the house or garden, even though DS1 really, really wants his own!!

Looking for ideas and help on this as I am struggling this holiday as well with ds (6) - for me, this is where having an only really bites.

I have to ask Solo, why do you have to be there at the riding lessons? That IMO is one place where you could walk away, however much pleading there is (maybe have a chat with the teacher beforehand and ask him/her to back you up)? Even if you can't go home, given that it's only an hour (?) could you go out of sight at least? You could do some phone calls etc?

The incompatibility bit sounds really tough, and is not something I have much experience with, but maybe there needs to be more conscious separating of your sons, since they have very different interests? Maybe the unplanned time together bit just won't work, maybe the unplanned time needs to happen when one of your sons is elsewhere with one of his friends, while the other is at home with one of HIS friends. Then you could decide, OK screen time is going to be 4 - 6 or whatever and stick to it?

sorry if this is no use. I am struggling with some of the same things very much.

Thanks Choosyfloosy. the riding lesson is only half and hr long and it takes 35 mins ti get to the stables - so not enough time to do anything whilst they ride. By the time I've booked the next lesson and spoken to the instructor, there's little space to do anything other than watch really.

Right now, they've both just gone downstairs to put on PCs and this is my time to shower, dress etc and start bkfasts. They're supposed to do some of their hol. homework today (part of it is on PC) but have just monaed it's far too early to start it yet and so instead are 'playing' on PCs.

So this is typical of the rut we're in. If I say right now, "Don't out on your PCs", the argument will prevent me getting on with getting up and the subsequent trying to find something for them to do other than screens will take even longer!

Not sure how to find a solution!

We didn't have a tribe around us when I grew up either, but you are right, there was more safe outdoors space. It is a big problem for most parents these days.

Fortunately, ds (9) has found a quiet cul-de-sac around the block were he takes his bike and his football and meets up with other young lads, but even that is a bit of a rare luxury these days. There is a very nice park that I'd be happy for him to go to, but none of the other boys are allowed, so he'd be very lonely.

Apologies if none of this is any use, but do they like reading, drawing/ colouring or playing with scalextric or remote control cars? Also my boys (only 6 and 4 though) spend hours on their trampoline. Good Luck - I know how frustrating it can be

I'd wait until after you are showered and ready and then ask them to sit down with you for a family meeting. Spare an hour to sit down together and all decide between you what you will do going forward.
They are old enough for you to say to them 'i need to do x hours of work each day so we need to work out how that can happen without me being disturbed. What are your ideas?'
limiting screen time will be tough. I have limited my ds recently, although he is younger. It was stress all round for a few days but so much nicer all round once it settled down.
Have a pre thought out list of suggstions that they can use as a starting point for your meeting. Ranging from Lego sets that they can follow the instructions and build themselves (they have ones called Lego creator which are really good value and a 10 pound ish one makes 3 different quite large things), to a cooking challenge... They can read your recipe books and choose something to help you make for dinner one night each, do they like art? Would they like to do a 'project' to design a go kart or something like that?
Basically, throw the whole situation in their court. Tell them they will be entertaining thselves for x hours a day (you could do every other day during hold and have days out in between to break it up) and they need to make a plan themselves on how they will manage that. You help them with the plan but after that they need to just run with it.
How about an incentive like an extra hour on pc in the evening if they've had a good productive day?

that does sound very hard. I think choosy is right and although it is a shame since they are brothers and both there that they cannot play together as such very well but I think you may have to look at seperate things which occupy each of them rather than joint activities.

have you looked into local holiday schemes? Would your ds with the mild aspergers cope? If not get at least one of them out of the house doing that and the other could have a friend he gets on with over a bit - indeed spend some time at his friend's place. Local churches might offer something, if you are ok with church set-ups.

You mentioned your garden is quite big but the boys get heckled by a gang of little thugs over the fence when they are there. I can imagine that puts them off using the garden. Can you screen it off more (with those highish bamboo screens or something, they're quick to put up even if they're not all that attractive), even if it puts the garden a bit more in the shade?

How about a fort/den/treehouse of some kind, any hope of that? DOn't know what is realistic. Kitted out with binoculars, books, they might spend some time up there. Even a tent in the garden

Maybe a shed for pottering about doing some kind of woodwork, messing about generally (they could do a course first). Tyre swings hanging off a tree? Those things where you stick a pole in the earth and it has aball attached to a string which you whack with a racquet, it spins round and you whack it back the other way

I've been thinking about this overnight - excellent distraction from my work (Solo2, would you care to do some of my revision? you sound far more organised than me).

I like Fel1x's approach, particularly setting up non-screen things for them to do, but wonder if it might be too much too soon to put it all in their court? I agree that, as a businesswoman, you need to approach this as a project - what are your aims? e.g.

to work X amount per day undisturbed.
for your boys to be able to entertain themselves for ?2 hours at a stretch.
to limit screen time to ?90 mins per day.

Then you do have to say to yourself, these are my aims and I need to achieve them. And you do need to be pretty horrible firm some of the time to achieve this, given that you have got a way to go.

They are obviously not going to go straight from 0 mins to 2 hours entertaining themselves. So how about a clock they can both read (not a timer?) You get a few things as Fel1x and ZZen suggest, to help them out. You make a list of house/garden jobs that you can do with them that have at least some potential entertainment value (sorting washing, washing the floor - they can dry it by 'skating' with cloths on their feet - washing the car, painting chairs, cooking, digging/planting etc) You say to them, in a meeting format, I think that you need to be able to entertain yourselves without PCs and tellies, because it's dull for other children if that's all you want to do, and it's dull for me. from now on you have 90 mins on the PC a day. you are going to entertain yourselves for 15 minutes by the clock without disturbing me. Every time you call for me or knock on the door you lose 5 mins of PC time. After 15 mins we will do [choose a job] together, then you will do another 15 mins on your own. We will have an hour of fun play together at the end of the day.

Then off you go. And you have to stick to it. Which does worry me; on the first day they will undoubtedly lose some time, and you will be facing a very long time sans PC. Can you do this once you have found a babysitter or similar to do a couple of hours a day with them, on the same programme? because you are going to crack, if you don't have some support.

Also if they are moaning about doing homework, tell them to stop moaning and get on with it, or you will pull the plug on the PC (and you have to do it, if they don't). Send them off. Lock the monitor in a cupboard. Cut the bloody plug off if you have to (I have never quite reached this although in extremis I have threatened it). Conversely, when they do do the homework, you will have to lavish them with praise, ring somebody and tell them about it, print it out and put it on the fridge etc. Likewise, at the end of their 15 minutes you will need to burst out of your room (work in the bathroom if that's the only place with a lock on the door) with a massive grin on your face and be fun fun mummy. (You probably need to stock up on wine as well before doing this).

The Holy Grail will be for you to burst out ready to do stuff with them and find that they don't want to stop what they are doing to be with you - hence not a timer with an alarm, so that they may actually forget what the time is. In that case, you still need to do the task you had in mind, so that you are around, then stick to the next 15 mins of work.

When they have managed this for a couple of days, you can extend it to 20 mins etc.

Also I was thinking for your ds1, CRICKET. Because although cricket goes on for ever, in fact it's ideal for short attention spans because every delivery of the ball is a tiny drama that lasts a very short time, over and over again. Also the local cricket club I have booked ds into for the summer coaching week does full days 10 - 4.30pm. Bonanza!

I am massively overthinking this but you will no doubt come up with your own approach as you sound vv resourceful. Best of luck.

I was wondering the same question the other day. I remember going out for hours on end and not wanting to go home whether that was in the garden or out front when older. Yet my lot whinge they are bored constantly

However yesterday the power was turned off in our area for hours. It was amazing, there was less fighting, less whingeing and they all found themselves things to do.
I have already told them the power people are turning it off again next week

Oh sorry, about going outside: i do think that at 9 they can judge distances. Is there anywhere they can go that means they only cross roads with controlled crossings?