"In western society, we use sophisticated mockery to diminish the too-devoted parent.

[emkana]

We characterise women as fettishly connected to their babies if they breastfeed openly and for as long as nature intended. We seduce them back to work and the marital bed and proclaim them weak if they put their own needs on hold while attending to those of small children."

(From Deborah Jackson, Baby Wisdom.)

What do you think? Is she right or not?

Disagree.

I agree, Senora. Women just can't win.

And yes the term 'natural' can be used to support many spurious arguments. It's too nebulous a term to pin down generally, and anyone who tries to should be regarded with suspicion.

Sorry I object to this:
"the pressure on new mothers to get back their pre baby bodies, it is a desire to deny your motherhood, look and act as if it never happened. "
eh - no I like to be fit and healthy and feel good about myself and fit back into my old clothes to save on having to buy a new wardrobe. I don't think I deny motherhood by doing this? Think you are generalising a wee bit.

There is of course nothing wrong with wanting to fit back in your old clothes, I would love to be able to but I feel there is a worrying trend to be back in your midriff showing velour tarcksuit and diamente thong within a few weeks of giving birth. Surely this is wrong, what happened to 9 months up nine months down? Or in may case nine months up three years down and maybe another stone to go!

After I had my daughter I had a party to show her off and was quite shocked to be approached by two women who had no interest in my daughter, they just wanted to hand me a contact card for the local amphetine supplier so I could lose my baby weight. When I said I wouldn't be needing them they gave a knowing nodd and asked which surgeon I was using!! Thye then looked aghast at me when I said I started to breastfeed my daughter, but then agreed it was a good idea as it would help me loose the weight quicker - no mention of benefits to baby. These were not young foolish girls but professional "successful" women who were in their thirties and fourties most of whom had booked their caesareans to fit in with their commitments only then to hand their newborns over to a nanny so they could keep felling like themselves rather than a dowdy Mum. This is denying motherhood and therefore denying our great strength as women.

recent studies that have analysed media portrayal of SAHM and working mothers show that SAHM mothers do tend to be portrayed in a worse light, we tend to be seen as thick, unfulfilled, bored and depressed!

Mind you I do feel like that today

sheepgomeep I fid that not only are we judged by the job we do but by how much we are paid.

I work six hours a week doing a job that requires many of the skills and a few more that I used in my teaching career. But because i only work a few hours and earn a pittance the real value of what i do is missed. Just as the real value of mothers, whether working, doing voluntary work or being a full time carer is dismissed.

"not only are we judged by the job we do but by how much we are paid"

not really true. Nurses have more general respect in society than plumbers, but earn a lot less. It is true that bringing up children isn't seen as "work" by many people, but I think that's a hangover from the days where the women did the household and the men did the "real" work. I think the bored housewife stereotype is more of a gender stereotype than a work related one.

If that study had compared the number of fulminating articles in the press about SAHMs vs working mums, I think it would have found decidedly more negative stuff about mums who work.

Talk about a leading statement. I hate that sort of thing. This is incredibly emotive language.

According to NLP theory this statement presents opinion (in this case Deborah Jackson's) as fact. My immediate response is - according to whom? Where is the evidence? "We" is a generalisation - does everyone really think this? Is this really true in all circumstances? Also, "We" is all of us, as everyone is an active part of society - if we give our power away to "we" it implies that we have a passive place in life - again this is disempowering.

I think that this is a bit of brain washing to be honest, to encourage the receptive reader to feel agrieved, so that they then think "my MIL said something like that last week" - everyone thinks it about me... (instead of silly bint, I make my own choices, who is she to judge)

I am a working mother, and that's my choice. I find Deborah Jackson's words incredibly irritating, because it implies that I am powerless to make my own choices - "we" somehow told me what to do. I don't think so.

I subscribe to the create your own world view theory. Every person is unique and makes the best choice available to them at the time. Each person will make different choices, another person may make a different choice but I really don't think anyone else should be labelling them as "weak", "fettishly connected" or "seduced".

Sorry! End of rant! I studied politics long ago, and I can't stand sweeping unsubstantiated statements!

Sorry, hadn't read all of the replies before.

Gothicmama - Labour are not following that policy to the point where women are actively being forced into work, though are they? It is still possible to claim income support as a single mother without the compulsory job interviews and stuff that unemployed people have to do.

Aloha - I agree that there seems to be a lot of pressure in the media for women to look and act the same before and after having a child. But media pressure is not the same as the pressure of "society".

custardo - spot on.

I did social anthropology at university and hated it, but i hate this kind of pseudo-anthropological rubbish even more. I particularly hate it when journalists and writers use the word "we" to refer to society in general when they are actually talking about themselves and their mates.

nooka - so you didn't like "we" either?

lol

I would have read this thread a month ago and said "what bollocks" but I have been trying to get a job and getting nowhere. Qualifications coming out of my armpits, pre-children regularly head hunted, on paper I look like I have everything they need and then some and I can't even get an interview. I had a very honest conversation with my recruitment consultant today and was told " they think you are a weak candidate because you took a year off with each baby". I just don't know what to say to that or how to answer it.

bosscat, that is grim

bosscat - that is hard for you.

The thing is though, they would have said that if you had gone to Africa for a year however many times I think. lots of employers completely fail to see experience outside the immediate work sphere as valuable experience.

maybe you're right though.

am I right in thinking you're in IT by the way? do you want a fake reference?

Ha! no, Law god help me. I just can't believe it. I left London working for a Legal 500 firm described as "one of the leading practices in the country" and I can't get an interview in the North. its insane. Apparently my recruitment guy was told that because my dh is a barrister I was OBVIOUSLY going to have 3 children so would be taking even more time off OBVIOUSLY a year like I have done before. I don't know, I must be really innocent because I really thought things had moved on. Obviously not in the modern forward world of law.

whereabouts up north? what kind of law?

Liverpool. Crime. Lots of it you would think!

LOL bosscat. Only asked because I work for a firm of solicitors in manchester but it's corporate commercial practice

well if I ever get a job I'll let you know when I'm in Manchester magistrates and we can have a coffee!

I remember reading a news article about a man who applied for lots of secretarial jobs in his real name and also in a made up female name. when the "woman" was shortlisted but he wasn't he did them for sex discrimination.

Perhaps you could test my Africa theory by sending in an alternative CV next time? You'll probably get booted out for lying, but you'll at least get an article in Law Monthly or something out of it.

bosscat - that is just horrible. What a pile of prejudiced, judgemental cr@p.
I hate the fact that women so often feel they cannot win - go back to work and you are criticised for neglecting your child, being materialistic etc. and SAHM means you are lazy and a doormat putting your life "on hold". Makes me sooooo mad.
What is just unbelievably amazing is that so much of this perpetuated judgemental rubbish is bantered around by fellow mothers and women - maybe partly to do with justifying their own choices/defence mechanism?
I remember an interview with Dawn French and J Saunders (two who I had always admired) taking about returning to work to "stop the rot" and their "brains turning to jelly" - great. My main topics of conversation might not be full of cutting edge humour, latest political views or philosophical opinions and I might find the topic of the benefits of pull ups over normal nappies interesting but so what? My brain is not rotting - just taken a different route for a while.
I think the first step to a little bit of logic, reason and tolerance is for women to stop feeling they have to justify their own choices by running down other women?s different stances. You see more and more of this on places such as mumsnet but there is still a lot of barriers to break down regarding these hotly contested issues such as bf, SAHMs, real nappies and other life choices.
Just jumped off my high horse now and feel a lot better for a good moan

basketcase, i don't think that's fair. Saying that you wanted to return to work to stop your brain from turning to jelly is not the same as saying that all SAHMs are jellybrains.

I felt like my brain was turning to jelly before I started working again, but I would never asssume all women are like that.

SP, hmmmm maybe I'll try that out, why not! Basketcase - couldn't agree more. Although have found French and Saunders to be very unfunny of late so perhaps a bit more baking annabel karmel's cheesy feet would be in order in their households

I definitely read the conversation to imply that any woman who stayed at home would end up with a jelly brain, maybe I got it wrong bosscat lol at annabel K

I just read out the thread title to DH who thought I said

"In western society we use sophisticated mockery to diminish the tea-devoted parent"

We have now had a weird conversation about why regular infusions of caffeine are essential to being a parent....

quite right. I am a tea-devoted parent and proud.