"In western society, we use sophisticated mockery to diminish the too-devoted parent.

[emkana]

We characterise women as fettishly connected to their babies if they breastfeed openly and for as long as nature intended. We seduce them back to work and the marital bed and proclaim them weak if they put their own needs on hold while attending to those of small children."

(From Deborah Jackson, Baby Wisdom.)

What do you think? Is she right or not?

God I have probably offended people, sorry ! THis whole issue just gets me angry. I feel the need to lie down!

I find the term 'extended breastfeeding' objectionable. Just as those who stop BF before four months might find the term 'curtailed breastfeeding' objectionable.

I think this whole thing stems from the fact that in reality women and children are society, they are the economy; they are at the centre of everything. Within this bigger picture it all seems so adolescent to try and diminish their role, but nothing would be worth doing or having without them.

Don't know if I've explained my point well enough but does anyone see what I mean?

I feel that everyone should be able to do what they want, whatever that is. If women want to stay at home with the kids, fine. If they want to go back to work, fine. If they want to work so that I can be a SAHD even better.

Do you not think it is sad that you went to university just to become a dofsbody to a three year old??!!!"

Twinset and pearls.. I get this comment all the time. I've got a degree, yet I fell pregnant7 months after finishing uni. So far I haven't used my degree. Instead I work part time in a local supermarket to make ends meet, as I'm now on my own with two small children. My parents said 'we didn't send you to uni to get a dead end job' My doctor said once whats a well educated woman like you doing working for sainsbury's' grrr and from some of my friends 'you wouldn't catch me doing what you've done'.

For ffs why are we defined by the job we do and the career we've got. It bugs me that women who stay at home are seen as a lower member of society, thick as planks and unfufilled.

I had to justify to my supervisor (a woman) why I could only do 16 hours a week. She wanted to know why I couldn't do more hours and when I said I coudn't and wouldn't want to, she said that if I really wanted to I could get my dd into day care and I should try!! It took all my self control not to rip her head off

I like your 'curtailed breastfeding thing very,very much indeed spidermama!!

Sheepdog, some people use that argument to say women shouldn't be entitled to an education!

Most politicians want to actively encourage women to work - not for the good of the family or of women (which is of course how they dress it up) -

but because it contributes to the economy and the tax base. That is why the government want women to work

And for centuries women have contributed to the ecomony from all of the unpaid labour they provide.

I am a mum and also work full time. This also has a big stigma attached to it. I am sure many people out there think I am a bad mum for not staying home and looking after my son. I went back to work because we need the money, my DH is just not earning enough. I also like my job.
This does not mean that I put myself and my needs first. I am not going to work to earn more money to buy designer clothes or a flash car, just to provide for my son, now and for the future.
I think it is so good that women in this society at least have the choice to do as they wish. Nobody should be judged for their choice, whatever that is. There are good mums and not so good mums. I think the fact that they are SAHM or working mums is irrelevant. What matters is the love, respect and quality time we give to our children.

Sorry I object to this:
"the pressure on new mothers to get back their pre baby bodies, it is a desire to deny your motherhood, look and act as if it never happened. "
eh - no I like to be fit and healthy and feel good about myself and fit back into my old clothes to save on having to buy a new wardrobe. I don't think I deny motherhood by doing this? Think you are generalising a wee bit.

BTW where is Kate Moss's baby? haven't seen a photo of her in a while while KM herself is never out of the magazines.

is it not her view? who's view is it then i am confused - is it as has been said her view or the view of an unnamed society or part of?

it depends where you are coming from - as we see on mumsnet and in this thread itself - sahm's feel persicuted by society as do working mums. breast feeding mums do as do bottle feeding mums.

theres always something to pick on when its a slow news day or you have nothing of substance to write about.

i haven't read the book - but commented on the quote in isolation

the quote to me does say that we are seduced back to work implying therefore that a better choice would be to stay at home - well will somone tell bill that please?

and i don't know why i shouldnt be seduced back to the marital bed - i dont care whether its her view or the view of faceless society - i want a bit of nookie ta v. much and don't see 'owt wrong wi' that.

i haven't experienced being called weak as a result of motherhood - in fact quite the opposite- reverence sometimes " OMG twins how ever did you cope" " OMG 3 under five - bet that was hard work" "OMG studying with 3 under five - how ever did you manage" " OMG studying and working you must be superwoman"

i think for the working woman at least relativly new working processes that allow us to start earlier or finish later or finish earlier or take toil is recognition by employers that flexible working contributes to the efficiency of the company rather than the other way round. this is a very nice bonus fro those of us who had no choice whether to work or not anyway.

I would love to have been seduced back to work, it implies a certain allure (instead of financial necessity, sadly)

She has rather loaded that second sentence. I'd have been better if she didn't link going back to work with having sex - as though, given the choice, we'd rather not do either of them.

I haven't read the book either but it reads to me like she's stating the 'received' wisdom without advocating it. After reading that paragraph I'd expect her to go on and challenge those statements, but I can't be sure. It's just phrased in a way that I'm already expecting a 'but' to crop up..so to speak.

There is a saying about mothers who continue to breast feed, that she's doing it for herself and not the child.

Women are constantly under so much pressure it's probably impossible not to feel guilty or to question your decisions on parenting at times. Most of the criticism has no real structure; it's just a free-floating uneasiness that manifests itself in a general distrust of women. Maybe because when it comes to procreation, women hold all the cards.

Id just love to be seduced [sigh] pref with lots of champagne involved somewhere

Um, I think a lot of women do feel guilty or as if they are wrong if they don't want to have sex when they have had a baby. It's always treated as a problem that needs treating instead of IMO a fairly normal state of affairs

Yep. In some cultures it's so well-established that women don't want to have sex after childbirth, that they're not actually allowed to! Which leads to the opposite unhappiness...

That bit about the marital bed is just odd - I don't really see any social pressure on that score one way or the other.

And as for "...proclaim them weak if they put their own needs on hold while attending to those of small children."

No, we don't. Many of us are surprised that some women want to put ALL of their needs on hold while attending to the needs of small children, but I can't think of an example of such women being decalared "weak". Quite the reverse, in fact - mothers who do put their needs first sometimes are branded "weak".

Also how long did "nature" intend that we breastfeed for anyway? It's possible to do it forever isn't it?

In ancient times ie iron age they reckon the evidence shows children were breastfed til about 4 as tehy could then be more self sufficent it also meant that women could travel quickly if neeeded as tehy weerenot loaded down with having to carry teo or more infants.
Labour at teh moment are following a policy of universal enmployment or teh adult worker model. which although tehy dress up as being for individual's benefit it must be driven primarily by economic needs. Therefore society and media will even more harshly judge SAHM or SAHD. Just as in teh past lone parents have been judged

In developing countries it's not unusual for a child to be breastfed until the age of 6 sometimes up to age 9.

Well I've just decided to stay at home full-time to look after my little boy whilst in the evenings for a few hours i'll be cleaning at the local hospital whilst DP has our son. I've had a few looks and comments when I said i'd be cleaning so I could look after my son "I would never do cleaning!" "Can't you just stick him in a nursery?" I'm proud of the fact i'm looking after my son and working! Does it really matter what kind of work i'm doing?? Really hate some peoples stuck up attitude.

Kate Moss is too busy snorting coke and hanging around with that pasty faced druggie to bother with her daughter. Wonder if her daughter even knows who she is...

Just because it's common for 6 years or so in some countries doesn't mean that's what "nature intended" (to say it is is slightly patronising to those countries, actually, since "natural" can be a euphemism for not-very-well-developed society). I'm all for prolonged breastfeeding, but that is loaded language that is just not helpful, frankly.

My wise mw told me that, internationally, the average age a child stops having mum's milk is 6.

Also I think there's just as much media prejudice against working mothers as there is against SAHMs. Probably more.