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Gina ford/routine

27 replies

roslily · 22/11/2009 15:04

Ok was talking to my neighbour and she mentioned that she did Gina Ford when her dd was 4 months as she was still waking 4-5 times. She was breastfeeding.

I am FF my ds and thought I might give it a go. I never thought I would! But so desperate for som sleep! What I would give for at least 4 hours!!

Anyway reading the book I can only find a routine for breastfed babies. My ds is 11 weeks, so is it the same routine for FF babies?

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harecare · 22/11/2009 15:10

Don't know, but what is the daytime routine she suggests for an 8 week old? I know dd1 did roughly what she suggests and dd2 is pretty similar.
I'd only use her routine if it's what your ds does anyway.

brimfull · 22/11/2009 15:11

Lots of Mnetters hate the gford method but I did it albeit not as striclty as she recommends.
Doesn't matter if you ffeed ,it's the routine that works.

Well it worked for me ,ds ended up a fab sleeper. I started when he was about 5 weeks I think.

roslily · 22/11/2009 15:34

I'm just so desperate for some sleep. I struggle to get him to sleep in day and even then he will do about 40min. He goes to bed at 7pm, and sleeps til about 10/11. Then every 1-2 hours in night, and from 4/5am he I wide awake.

It is killing me.

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Last0rders · 22/11/2009 15:41

I followed GFord, and my DS was FF.

My DS was a fantastic sleeper from pretty much day 1. Maybe he was just meant to be that way, maybe it was the routine I followed, I don't know, but he slept incredibly well then and he sleeps very well now at 6. We went through hell with colic, but thats part and parcel of FF baby.

I'd say give it a go but modify it to FF. I did, but it was such a long time ago now I can't remember what I done...!

I know many people hate the GF routine, and that's fair enough - each to their own and all that, but it worked wonders for me once we got through the colic stage.

Maybe talk to your health visitor. I remember having to try many formulas before I found one that suited him.

cfc · 22/11/2009 16:05

We're a GF house although BF. I am pretty sure you just use the timings for BF to give a bottle.

If you want to start with the routine then start with the waking at 7 and it should fall into place from there with the napping and night time routine. Then work on the feeding routine though I must admit we demand fed (is there any other way?) so I couldn't advise you on getting the feeding into the strict routine.

Our son is a good sleeper of a night and we are really lucky - now he's over 6 months and weaning he's doing 7 - 7 with one waking for a feed, although recently he's been waking later in the night but we've settled him without giving him a feed and I hope he'll slip back into his old ways soon.

What I found the main life saver to be with GF was that she taught me that babies will be tired after 2 or so hours of being awake. He napping routine I think saved my life (dramatic I know, but I needed those few hours in the day to sort out myself/the house/bills/etc etc). It's the naps in the day I love as I can actually DO the things I need to do without baby whinging in the background.

With regards to the night-time routine no matter what we've done in the day which has thrown the baby's day time napping routine out, as long as he has 15 mins - 45 mins at 4-5 o clock in the evening and is up by 5, we're golden. IN the bath at 6.15 and a quick feed and if I'm honest, he's usually down by 6.45. He's always always been a very efficient feeder and only ever came off his weight line when he showed signs of needing to wean.

Good luck. Every single one of my friends outside of my NCT class use GF and there's not a single one, out of I think 10 babies, who doesn't play ball.

Get the book and as I said start with the getting up at 7 (even if that means him feeding at 6 am and going back down - do you get me?) and it should fall into place. Cherry pick from it, as we did, and you will be ok.

If I can help further let me know, though I am no GF expert.

harecare · 23/11/2009 20:42

CFC, can you just tell me roughly what times she says an 8 week old should feed and sleep? First time around my dd had a routine that was what she suggests, but I keep interrupting dd2s routine by looking after dd1 and then forgetting where I am. I know things happen at roughly the same time each day, but I can never 100% remember from day to day.

Lauz125 · 08/12/2009 17:22

I swear by Gina Ford. It annoys me when people criticise her without even knowing what she's about. She NEVER tells you to leave a baby to go hungry. She also NEVER tells you that your baby has to wait until the desired times. She specifically tells you to assume that the baby is hungry if he wakes between 2.30am and 7am and tells you to feed him/her.

I also formula feed and I am currently following the 2-4 week routine. I am about to move to the 4-6 week routine very shortly though. The only criticism I can give is that it is focused more towards breast fed babies and its difficult to convert 25 minutes onto your breast into ounces.

I don't think it matters how much you give your baby as long as it follows the same structure which is:

7am- biggest feed, maximum your baby will comfortably take (My baby is 11 lbs and has 6oz here)
10.30am- slightly less than the breakfast feed (I give 5oz)
2.30pm- slightly less again (I give 4oz)
5.00pm- half of your maximum amount, the other half is given at 6.15pm (I give 3oz to take him through to his bath)
6.00pm- bath
6.15pm- half of your maximum amount (I give 3oz)
6.45pm- bed, then he's normally in a deep sleep at 7pm
10.30pm- maximum amount, same as breakfast as this is an important feed (I give 6oz)
2.30-3.00am- as much as your baby will comfortably take. (This is normally 5oz for me)

If he wakes after 2/3am but before 7am and appears to be hungry, give him a couple of ounces, then top him up at 7am.

I have read this book inside thoroughly which I feel is crucial in order to understand her views and understand that she is NOT harsh on babies. She actually focuses on making the baby content which it has already done for my baby. If you have any more questions then feel free to ask and I will do my best to help.

roslily · 08/12/2009 18:20

My problem is that my ds won't sleep for more than 30-45mins at a time, and Gina just says "put them down in a dark room" If I do that he screams blue murder!

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Lauz125 · 08/12/2009 19:12

That was the same as my baby at first, and I thought he was ready to wake after 30-45 minutes. But she says that babies go into a light sleep at 30-45 minutes which is why they wake up. How easily he goes back to sleep if he awakes from this light sleep all depends on how he is used to being put to sleep. If you always rock him to go to sleep for his naps then he will expect to be picked up and rocked back to sleep from this light sleep that he enters after 45 minutes. If he always falls asleep on the bottle, he will feel like he needs a bottle to go back to sleep. The one thing I didn't listen to in the book (which I now regret) is letting my baby fall to sleep with a dummy in his mouth. Now, when he wakes up, I have to go into his room and put his dummy back into his mouth.

Gina Ford doesn't tell you that you aren't allowed to cuddle your baby before bed, or that he isn't allowed dummys, bottles when he wants, but she says that you should only do these things until your baby is HALF asleep. Once you can see he is getting dopey, put him into bed. So if he falls asleep on the bottle then rearrange his nappy so he wakes up slightly before putting him into bed. Or take his dummy out of his mouth once he is half asleep and settled.

In my opinion, it sounds to me as though your baby is overtired, which probably makes it difficult for him to settle (he fights sleep all the time) and is very grumpy when he wakes. It sounds horrible and is a very last resort, but if you know your baby isn't hungry, has wind, needs a nappy change, needs water due to thirst etc, then you have got to let him cry for 5 minutes, 10 at the very most. It's horrible to listen to and I felt so guilty but it was the only way he would wear himself out and fall to sleep immediately after, making him happier once he has woken because he's had a full sleep. Even the dummy didn't work at this point. After I did this, he soon got into a routine of sleeping more.

Are you giving him enough milk during each feed? Is he falling asleep on the bottle and not having as much as he needs? Have you tried giving him cooled boiled water inbetween each feed if you know he isn't actually hungry? He may just be thirsty.

She says you should put them in a dark room so that the light doesn't wake them once they go into a light sleep after 30-45 minutes. That may be what's happening with your baby. If he hates sleeping in a dark room it may be worth turning the light on in the hallway outside his room instead of having his bedroom light on, and each night shut the door a little bit more so he slowly gets used to having less and less light going into his room each night.

Other than that, he may be going through a growth spurt if it has only been happening for a few days. I'm assuming it's a long term problem though.

Feel free to ask anything else. In the back of her book there is a section on common problems in the first year. I found this really helpful.

Lauz125 · 08/12/2009 19:18

Harecare, here is the 8-12 weeks routine:

7am- feed

9am- sleep

10am- wake

10.45/11am- feed

12 noon- sleep

2-2.15pm- wake

2.30pm- feed

4.15-4.30pm- offer him water or juice

4.45pm- short nap

5pm- wake and feed

5.45pm- bath

6.15pm- feed

7pm- bed

10-10.30pm- feed

I hope that helps!

Lauz125 · 08/12/2009 19:32

Roslily, have a look at the bottom of page 83 regarding the moro-reflex. That may be another reason why your baby keeps waking. The only other things I can think of are him being too cold if he has kicked the blankets off constantly, him having wind so he can't settle (try using infacol if thats the case- I use it before every feed regardless of how his wind is and he began to settle after a week of using it)

When your baby wakes, do you leave him for a minute or so to see if he will settle or do you always attend straight to him? If he is used to you doing that then that may be why he won't go back to sleep on his own.

As a last resort, and if you have the money, I would recommend a swing which they sell at Babies 'r' Us. This is the one I have got and my baby ALWAYS falls to sleep in it and easily settles himself back to sleep if he wakes after half hour because of the music and motion.

www.toysrus.co.uk/Babies-R-Us/Collections/Ziggy-Zebra-Loving-Hug-Swing(0068327)

Maybe it would help your baby to use it intially to get a good couple of hours worth of sleep, which would hopefully be followed by a few more good naps as he will be happier and not as overtired/irritated. If you do buy it then don't let your baby get into the habit of sleeping in that and not sleeping in his moses basket.

Sorry to keep referring to your baby as 'he' but you didn't mention the sex. Do you think anything I have said would be useful or have I totally missed that point? I'm not an expert but I find that it's always nice to hear other peoples opinion/advice/experience.

roslily · 08/12/2009 19:42

He is a he! It is hard to leave him as when he wakes up it is a full blown, high pitched scream. Today I laid with him on our bed for his nap, he managed nearly an hour and still woke up screaming, so I know it isn't that he is scared when he wakes up.

I swaddle him, so don't think he is jerking his arms to wake himself up. It is definitely the sleep cycle thing.

The way I get him to sleep is swaddle, and hold sometimes shush/patting if he is agitated. Then as he gets drowsy I put him down to sleep. At 7pm I can put him down awake and relaxed with white noise cd on and he will go off on his own. But not for naps.

When he wakes up from naps early and is hysterical I pick him up, shush/pat until calm and then put down. Often it can take another 30mins to get him back to sleep.

He takes about 5-6oz every feed (he is 14lbs), never falls asleep on bottle.

I really appreciate the advice btw.

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Lauz125 · 08/12/2009 20:19

Have you tried following Gina Ford's sleep times? Its really hard for me to keep my baby awake for as long as she suggests, so if he falls asleep before the suggested times, I just make sure I wake him after he's had the recommended sleep. So if she says it should be 1.5 hours max, I wake him up after that amount of time and then feed him when he is normally fed so he is back on track with his routine.

I know it's horrible and makes you feel really guilty but I would honestly recommend you leave your baby to settle himself back to sleep. If he's genuinely tired, he will fall back to sleep on his own. My baby does that high pitched screaming and I felt so bad listening to it...I actually got up and was about to pick him up and he just stopped crying and fell straight to sleep, I couldn't believe it! It took about 7 minutes, but it had to be done and after I did that a couple of times he started to settle into deep sleeps. He now goes from 10.30pm and wakes me up at 3.30am and is only 4 weeks old.

Have you been out with him in the pushchair? If you go out at 11.30am and get back for 2.30pm then it still fits in with the routine, and I would assume that the constant motion in the car/around the shops would keep him awake and settle him back to sleep immediately if he does wake. If that doesn't work then I'm really not sure what it could be! Normally a baby sleeps straight through the car journey and walking around the shops in the pushchair. But then again, mine is only 4 weeks old...they manage to stay awake more at your babys age so it probably doesn't work for you.

The very last thing I can think of is to join as a member on Gina Fords website, where you have to pay a fee but you will be able to ask all of this to the advisors and they will be able to help you out. It's obviously a sleep issue other than anything else because he is feeding well so is probably not hungry.

I would suggest you see if he settles himself back to sleep just once to see if he can sleep for longer than what he is. I know it sounds cruel but so many people I know have to do it, otherwise your baby will expect to be cuddled to sleep everytime he wakes up until he is older. I hope it gets better for you, I can only imagine how tired you must be.

harecare · 08/12/2009 20:37

THANK YOU!!! My DD2 pretty much does that anyway, but it really helps to have the times in my head to remember as she is soo much happier when I get the napping right.
I usually put her to sleep in her pram in the day and when she wakes I give it a little shake and she usually goes back off again. If I get her up at this point she is really grumpy and red eyed.
I don't do what she says at night though as I don't like to interrupt her sleep by waking her for an 11pm feed. It's paid off as she can now sleep from 7/8pm til 6/7 am!! Not always, usually she has a 4am feed, but that's OK by me. I also save her baths for mornings when she's happier. I'm surprised about the juice/water thing, but I'm happy not to do that.

roslily · 08/12/2009 20:45

Hmmm, I'm not sure about letting him cry, read so much research about CIO and CC, and the damage it can do. I will see if i can do it.

As to pram/car- nope my baby bucks teh trend. he screams in car, hates it! he will sometimes fall asleep in pram, but only after an hour of walking! Then I have to keep walking to keep him asleep.

He woke up onight around 8pm (unusual for him) so I did a sort of PU/PD and it seemed to work.

I think I need to get black out material for his room too.

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priyag · 09/12/2009 00:28

roslily - Gina Ford does not recommend controlled crying or crying it out for very young babies, she says it is a last resort for babies over six months who have learned the wrong sleep associations. The only crying she recommends is when a baby becomes overtired and can't settle themselves to sleep, she advises to use "crying down" a method pionered by a sleep expert called Dr Symons. Even then she says the baby should only be allowed to cry down for five to ten minutes, and if the baby does not settle she then advises offering more food and try resettling again.

By the way there is no research that actually proves that controlled crying causes long term damage. The research out there says that it could, but not that it does !

priyag · 09/12/2009 07:40

roslily I wonder if your baby could be waking up crying because of hungry ? He is a good weight and would need around 35oz of milk a day, not sure how many feeds a day he is on, but perhaps 5oz is not always enough ?

Not sure which book it is in, but GF does mention something about assisted sleep routine,i.e cuddling, sling, walk in buggy etc; where you do whatever it takes, to get the baby to sleep at regular times.
Doing this for a couple of weeks or more is supposed to help set their body clock at regular times.

Lauz125 · 09/12/2009 08:02

I agree, Gina Ford only tells you to let a baby cry when they are overtired and wont settle to sleep which is why I think you should try it just once. It's a last resort (which it seems as though you have tried everything else) and the baby shouldn't be left for longer than 10 minutes. Only do this if you are sure that your baby isn't hungry, thirsty, cold, hot, in need of a nappy change etc.

People may think it's cruel, but it will help you and your baby to get some well deserved sleep and he will be happier once he wakes up. After all, he is probably just as exhausted as you if he can't sleep for loinger than 45 minutes.

If you think about it logically, your baby probably cries for 10 minutes whilst you're holding him. But holding him can sometimes only stimulate him because even if you aren't giving him eye contact, he can still see your face which babys find fascinating. Picking him up when he cries can SOMETIMES only wake him up more.

However, you're his mom and you should do whatever you feel comfortable with.

priyag · 09/12/2009 08:43

The other thing she suggests if babies are not settling at the LTN, is to do a split feed at 10.15am and 11.15am so that you can be sure that the reason that the baby is waking up after 45 minutes is not hunger.
She also suggests that if a baby is waking more than once in the night, to do a split feed at 10pm and 11.15pm. Having them awake a bit longer and increasing the amount they take between the split feed should help them go longer. This bit of advice really worked for me.
HTH

roslily · 09/12/2009 09:32

Thanks guys. You are right I have tried everything else! I will get her book out again and look at sleep times.

He eats every 3 hours- so 7, 10, 1, 4, 7 and 10pm. Then he usually wakes at 2am and 5am. I have tried upping his bottles to 7oz, but he turns his head away before he finishes it.

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BigusBumus · 09/12/2009 09:52

rosily, my 2 babies were entirely FF and i stuck to the GF routines to the letter, especially with DS1. It was amazing for me and for them. I used to look at my frazzeled friends who held and shushd their screaming babies for snatces of sleep, who had to drive them around the block all night etc and really want them to try the GF book, but they wouldn't and were adament it wasn't natural....

Anyway, i wholeheartedly agree with Lauz125 about the crying thing. I actually did do controlled crying for both my boys. (so shoot me!) Both were exactly the same. 10 minutes crying and 10 minutes making some kind of softer noise for the 1st night, 10 minutes crying the 2nd night, 5 minutes the 3rd and not at all from that night onwards. They are 7 and 3 now and not "harmed" in any way! Just happy boys and fantastic sleepers who get into bed at 7pm, go straight to sleep with no fuss and get up at 7am.
Both slept through the night from 7pm to 6am ish (with a dream-feed at 10.30) from 8 weeks old.

The best thing about being strict with the routines during the day, is that you can properly plan a day around the naps rather than your baby dictating when you can wash your hair, do the ironing, see your friends etc.

priyag · 09/12/2009 10:01

roslily for babies 8 - 12 weeks who are not settling well GF recommends the following routine;
7am feed
9am nap no more than 40 mins
10am feed
11.15am top-up
11.30/12noon LTN
2/2.30 feed
4.30 short nap if poor LTN
5pm feed
6.15pm feed after the bath
7pm asleep
10pm feed and awake
11/11.15pm feed and settle
feed the minute the baby wakes in the night and do not restrict the feed.

This worked really well for me and quite a few other mums I know. You have nothing to lose trying it for a few days. When reading the routine for your baby's age it is really important to read the advice at the end of each routine on how to adapt the routine if things are not going well.

Good luck

priyag · 09/12/2009 10:04

Forgot to add that I agree with what the others say about allowing a ten minute crying down period. Crying down is totally different to controlled crying when a baby is left longer and longer spells until it eventually falls asleep. Crying down should only take five to ten minutes and then the baby's crying should stop.

priyag · 09/12/2009 10:04

Forgot to add that I agree with what the others say about allowing a ten minute crying down period. Crying down is totally different to controlled crying when a baby is left longer and longer spells until it eventually falls asleep. Crying down should only take five to ten minutes and then the baby's crying should stop.

roslily · 09/12/2009 12:12

I am going to try it for a week and see if it helps.

At the moment he feeds at 5/5.30am ish, should I still feed him at 7am to get him usedf to this?

Sorry for all the questions!

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