I hate it when small children are called "manipulative"

[emkana]

Was talking to a group of mums about an 18-month-old toddler who cries at night because he wants to get into his parents' bed. When they let him into their bed he's content and smiles and goes to sleep. All the mums were saying how "manipulative" this little one was and how he knew exactly how to get his own way and how you had to stamp down on this kind of behaviour etc.
Now I'm not saying everybody has to co-sleep - if you don't want to do it, fine. But it really gets to me when "evil" intentions are ascribed to a small child. This little boy loves his parents and wants to be close to them at night. Of course a child has to learn that they can't get their own way all the time, and every parent has their own feelings what is acceptable and what isn't.
I'm not making myself very clear here, does anybody understand what I'm saying?

Custardo, but babies aren't crying because they think that will change your mind, they are crying because they are sad, cross, frustrated etc. Babies cannot know that their crying will make their parents feel guilty/sad/anxious - they just can't. They are incapable of it. To be manipulative you have to have a fairly clear concept of how your actions will affect another person's thoughts and emotions. That is impossible for babies.
I cannot agree that to ask for something in a straightforward - albeit forceful - manner can ever be manipulative.
If you ask your kids to clean their rooms, and shout to make your point, are you manipulating them? Surely not.

babies cry to change a sitation they are in - these situations are not always "base insticnct" situations like food or nappy.

take an 18 month old toddler... they wont eat anything you give them ....eventually yougive them chocolate - they eat it. this continues.

yes i undesterstand that the toddler isnt sat in a corner with a plan in his hand - a patch over one eye smoking a cigar stroking a persian cat. the toddler is not thinking " i will deliberatley piss my mum off - ilike to see her cry hahahahaaaaaa"
the toddler is thnking " yumy um chocolate, i want more."
that is manipulative.
same 18 month old toddler want to get into mums bed - iassume becuase it has a connotation to being loved - being close to parents. this is the want of the baby. this may not be ideal for the parent. however ifthe baby then cries until it gets its own way every night - that is manipulative. as in they are manipulating/ changing a situation to suit themselves.

Fraid I just don't agree there. As I have said already.

I agree with weesaidie. The word manipulative is such a negative word and it implies you have some kind of control or hold over another person. I think we often forget how little a toddler understands. I remember playing hide and seek with my 3 year-old and he was looking for me in all seriousness in the microwave!

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I really liked seeing Emkana's post. Totally agree.

I agree with Emkana et al. It's along the lines of people who ascribe babies as being 'spoilt' or 'in a temper' if they cry and you pick them up to comfort them.

Custardo, where I disagree with you is that the baby isn't 'crying to get it's own way' - it is crying because it is sad/frustrated/angry - the tears are the expression of the child's emotion, babies are absolutely incapable of understanding how their tears might make you feel. Say your boss is vile to you and you cry because you are so upset, your boss might say, "oh look, she's being manipulative, crying to make me nice to her', but you aren't, you are crying because you can't help it - as an expression of your feelings.
A baby is ALWAYS like this! A baby CANNOT think 'If I cry long enough my parents will feel sad/guilty and let me do what I want". A baby cannot begin to think this way. No more than it can do complex algebra.
Trying to get what you want by asking for it is not manipulation. Expressing your emotions is not manipulation. Preferring chocolate cake to pasta is not manipulative!
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apostrophe alert!

Agree with Emkana/Aloha et al. Adults projecting deviousness/manipulativeness onto children when it isn't there. Very sad IMO.

That's not to say that older children/toddlers can't try to be manipulative - but IMO they are usually so rubbish at it that we see right through them and so hardly counts
And I'm still smiling about looking for you in the microwave!

Agree with Aloha et al. A baby or toddler just can't do that much thinking! As a parent, it may be inconvient to stop what you are doing and give them what they want but that is another story. Just because we may feel negatively about that ourselves, we don't need to project that onto the child.

Agree with custardo.

Thank you to all, especially aloha, who have managed to express my thoughts for me so clearly and eloquently!

I've not had time to read the other posts, but I nearly slapped my neighbour when she said (and continues to say) that my 8 month old is manipulating me when he wakes up at night for booby. She refuses to believe the latest advice that BF baies may need 1 or 2 BFs during the night until they are 1. Silly stupid cow.

not that I still let her get to me or anything...

This is quite a tricky one, as alot depends on the age of the child. At 18 months a toddler is getting a pretty clear idea of what it likes and doesn't like and also understands that it is an individual that can make things happen.
I fall into the group that does believe an 18 month old can manipulate a situation to try and achieve its own ends. (Although, I do not necessarily believe that they themselves are manipulative.)
I remember when my eldest was very poorly at 16 months old, I let him sleep with me for 3 nights until I was sure he was better. On the 4th night he howled the house down because he was put back in his own cot. Yes, he was probably unhappy about the situation but had I given in to his outrage then he would have manipulated me into changing my behaviour to suit him. When actually the best thing for him was to go back to his cosy, comfy cot (where he had always been happy)and the best thing for me was to get back into bed with my H.

I absolutely agree with Aloha here - up until the point where they do actually start to experiment with arrant manipulation. DS did start this quite early. The first example I remember was over twiddling the cooker knob. he did it, we put him outside the door. this went on, he learned that we didn't want him to twiddle the cooker knob. Then one day 9it must have been before he was 18 months) he came in carrrying his monkey. Monkey twiddled the cooker knob - and Ds gave us a look of triumphant glee.
The other trick was to howl loudly in protest over some moinor infringement of his pleasure - and then if I took no notice, he would stop, pop his head round the door, say "Mummy, "boy blu is crying" in a helpful tone, go back out and howl some more! As Aloha says - hopeless!
But mostly, alongside all this, they still have needs, expectations and wants. And if something nice happens 3 nights in a row - sleep with mummy - it is hardly surprising that they are outraged to have that withdrawn again.

Exactly. I just think they are unhappy therefore they cry which is their best means of expressing themselves.

At fairly early age (from posts here I would say 18 months to 2yrs) they do seem to understand the idea of manipulation but they do not understand that it is a 'bad' thing do they?

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i agree its the term manipulative which is being argued.

the child wants therefore the child gets is manipulation.

i agree with MLL in that it is a form of communication - so if a child cries constantly until it gets picked up - it will soon learn that it gets results - hence controlled crying. that is manipulation of a situation.

i think where aloha et al and i are disagreeing is with the conotations the "word" maniplulation has for each of us. i consider it to be the change of a situation for your own benefit. i do not think babies or toddlers deliberatly sit down and plan misery!!!

I manipulate my children every day - think about a reward system " oh johnny...if your really good and get 4 gold stars then we can go to the park tomorrow!!" is complete manipulation of a situation to suit the mothers needs.

where MLL's child is saying "my tummy hurts" to get attention - she is using a different way of communicating to manipulate the situation where she will get attention from her mother. becuase she is changing the situation to suit her needs first. this doesn'tmean she is evil or bad, sly coniving, a little on the darkside - the word isto change a situation for your own benefit.

using the Boss analogy - then i agre with you - my boss would be wrong as emotion is emotion - and if a baby cries because it is in pain then ofcourse that is not the same as crying constantly all night every night becuase the baby wants to be picked up.

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Not really emkana,

I think you are taking casual chat amongst mums far too literally. They don't mean that he is a conniving manipulative double dealing little so and so...

I use the term manipulative re my 14 month old. But I don't actually mean it. It's just something one says to have a tension releasing laugh about something your lo does which isn't your favourite aspect of his / her behaviour.

I probably shouldn't read these types of thread. They - to coin a populist phrase - 'do my head in'

By that, I don't literally mean that my head is being compressed or crushed in some way, you understand

Sorry - that sounded rude. Didn't mean to say you haven't every right to post on this subject emkana, or that it isn't a valid topic.