Bilingual schooling - how important is it that children are taught their minority language by a native speaker?

[castille]

DD is bilingual French-English (me English, DH French) and we live in France. She is 11 and in the bilingual section of an otherwise normal French secondary school.

This year she was taught English language, literature and civilisation in English by an American teacher recruited specifically to teach in the section, and things have been fine. But I have just found out that next year their English teacher will one of the schools "normal" English teachers, ie a French person speaking English.

I am not pleased about this. Half the point of sending her there was to be taught some of her classes in English by native speakers.

Am I making too much of this, or is it as important as I think it is?

What have you got against "membres de la société civile" on juries, AA? The grandes écoles have been doing this for ages.

I don't have anything against them per se, but I don't see how they will assess the candidates' language skills. And TBH given the current President's habit of giving jobs to his mates, (though I know you are a fan of his), I'm v sceptical as to who will be on said juries and what their role will be.
Recruiting for entrance to a grde école and recruiting teachers isn't the same thing, IMO.

Obviously the assessment of a candidate's language skills is crucial, and specific. But language skills are far from being the only necessary qualities for the making of a good language teacher.

One of the big problems with the teaching profession in France and elsewhere is that it is so impervious to outside influences and experience. The very real risk is that school doesn't prepare children for the outside world beyond school because teachers have never worked outside it and don't understand it.

My DP was recently on a jury, with teachers, assessing pupils presenting the results of their stages de troisième and he was very aware that teachers were missing very real work-related qualities in their pupils because those qualities weren't part of the programme^.

AA - you seem to know lots about the CAPES. Could you e-mail me english governess at gmail dot com so I can ask a couple of questions about taking it (as a British person wanting to teach English in France).

I'm not sure what the President (of whom I am no particular fan - I just think he was the best man for the job, which wasn't saying much) can do to influence juries, either. It seems a little bit far from the main preoccupations of Power to worry about the composition of a jury...

Sorry OP - slight diverstion there.

Personally I'd be furious, especially if she's supposed to be in a bilingual section. It's very easy to get into bad habits and difficult to get out of them. If she's getting the wrong input at school and being told by the teacher that it's right then she might have trouble later on.

Good, I'm glad no one thinks I'm being precious!

Just had a chat with DD's best friend's mum (also English) about this and we agree that it's not good enough so we're going to carry on our protest and take it higher if necessary. And take DD to visit the alternative (private) school - so doing what Darcos wants us to do...

Interesting side discussion AA and Anna.

If you want hard data on the position in other bilingual schools, and whether they employ exclusively EMT teachers for English in collège, I can collect data for the Paris area for you...

Sorry to continue the diversion: I think the composition of the juries has in fact been decreed from on high, Anna. Until I saw his vile speech of Jan 22nd, I didn't think so, but then I saw just how much disdain and dislike NS has of academics and researchers, and how far he is prepared to go to undermine them and their reputation. I'm not a paranoid person, but he lied blatantly and denigrated so many people that I could only conclude he had a serious axe to grind with them.
The problem is that the reform states clearly that members of "la société civile" MUST be on juries, but doesn't state that linguistic skills of language teachers should be tested. Skewed priorities, IMO.
I agree that often teachers are cut off from the realities of real life, but I think there are better ways of solving that problem.
Close diversion, now, Castille.

FrakkinPannikin, I'll e-mail you soon...

Calling in from Italy.....where believe me, the English language teaching situation is far worse than France (I work here in Italy in a scuola media as a native speaker teacher and in the summer in the UK for a company as course director for a group of French students about to sit their bacc next year and am always raving to Italian colleagues on my return that the French system puts the Italian one to shame)

I don't see why having a non-native L2 teacher needs to be a negative. Granted it's not a super-positive but given that the OP's daughter is already bilingual...then what's the problem? My daughter is bilingual Italian and English (followed OPOL from birth) and although I know sigh that she's going to fall into the hands of (in some cases) English teachers who have never been to England or even got a degree in English language I'm not worrying about it, because she's already fluent IYSWIM?

As for the whole literature debate- I'm firmly of the opinion that the sooner literature becomes an optional and we actually teach kids to fecking speak a language rather than write/copy/download essays on sodding Shakespeare then the better we''ll all be.

Bucharest - Castille's DD is not doing English as a foreign language (L2) - she is in a bilingual stream. Not the same situation.

Agree with you on literature . I am appalled that in France (both in mother tongue and foreign language classes) so little time is spent on modern use of language in real life situations.

Ah- sorry- gosh, yes, in that case, WTF???

When I lived in Germany, one of my neighbours was an English teacher at the local school. I was appalled at the standard of her English, it was all I could do to understand what she was saying. The thought that she was teaching German DC to speak English

I don't think that the bare fact of a non-native speaker is the important thing here, but the standard of the language skills that the teacher has. I have several friends who speak English so well that I would gladly let them teach my children.

As long as they can be understood, speak fluently and can teach the necessary grammar well, I don't see that it need be a problem.

Saying that, if I were paying for a bilingual school then I would expect the standard of teaching to be higher than the local school.

AuldAlliance - I suppose, if I am really honest, that I think that schools cannot really teach MFL to the basic monolingual population. They, and other influences, can introduce them to pupils. But if you want to learn another language to a functional standard, you have to go and live in a country where it is spoken - or at the very least be plunged into an environment where it is spoken.

Anna - yes I'd love some stats on EMT teachers, particularly in the state sector, if you can get some without inconvenience. It would be interesting to whether or not be being unreasonable in expecting EMT teaching in the relevant subject throughout the section.

MmeL - we're not paying, it's a state school, but they bang on about the high standards they expect from pupils in this bilingual section so it would be nice to have some in return.

Gosh AA what a depressing picture you paint of the future

There are six or seven relevant schools in Paris/Ile-de-France. I am certain that one is a no-fees-at-all school. I will investigate

There are six or seven relevant schools in Paris/Ile-de-France. I am certain that one is a no-fees-at-all school. I will investigate

Anna, I'd agree with you.
But it would be nice if the introduction was done by people offering a correct, comprehensible linguistic model.
It's such hypocrisy to claim that French primary school kids are learning English, when it is often being taught by professeurs des écoles who are so aware of their own deficiencies (and didn't intend to teach English, but to be primary school teachers) that they hardly dare open their mouths.
And I agree about the lit; it should be used as a means of discovering the culture of other countries after pupils have been taught to communicate adequately in the language of those countries.

Castille, I'd love to be more positive, believe me. Most of my colleagues, who have been keeping the underfunded university system going through sheer hard work, with crap conditions and pay, are now really depressed. I have been lucky enough to have been on maternity leave since the start of the strike, but am absolutely dreading going back to work.

I really, really can't do the italics thing can I?
Maybe Sarko's right after all: bac +9 and an incompetent wastrel...

The Lycée international de Sèvresstates on its website that its teachers are both EMT and qualified teachers right through from maternelle to lycée. It also states elsewhere on its site that 90% of the fees levied for the bilingual sections go towards covering the costs of the teachers' salaries.

EAB, EABJM and Lycée International de Saint-Germain-en-Laye all claim officially in their presentations that all their teachers are EMT and qualified teachers. They all charge fees, though.

I tried calling the secretariat of the international sections at Honoré de Balzac (a state school with bilingual sections) but there was no reply. I'll try again.

There is also an international lycée in Fontainebleau, and the Lycée Franco-Allemand at Buc has a British section. I'll investigate...

I spoke to Reception at Honoré de Balzac. The international sections are doing admissions tests today and the secretary is not taking calls. I will try again!

Teachers in the Anglophone section at Fontainebleau - they look quite English to me!

"The Anglophone section is for children with a very high level of English when entering the programme. Students are taught by English mother-tongue specialist teachers."

It appears to be a state school.

I tried calling the number for Mme Thomas, head of the Anglophone section, on this page of the Lycée Franco-Allemand, but there was no answer.

You might want to call some of these people yourself - to see what they think about your school's proposal! A few juicy quotations from competing schools might help you argue your case!

From the Fontainebleau Anglophone section site:

"All students are full members of a normal French class, following the French State Educational programme, but in parallel, they spend a minimum of 6 hours per school week in Anglophone Section classes taught in English. Under the terms of the agreement with the French Education Ministry, the Section recruits British or American specialist teachers to teach English Language and Literature, History/Geography in English to fluent English-speaking pupils. The section is therefore fee-paying, governed by an Association responsible for recruiting and paying the Section teachers and administrative staff."

So there are fees.