Nursey (at primary school) wont change my soiled child

[MikeDadof3]

Hi all, just to vent spleen and put some feelers out. My Son (3y,5m) has just started Nursery school, attending half day sessions at a primary school. He has coped really well and loves attending, however our only area for concern being his toilet accidents.

1 - At home, we take him to the loo every 45 minutes or so - and he keeps dry. Despite telling the school staff this he mostly comes home in spare clothes having had a wee accident. (we send our own spare clothes but they keep using their own school clothes)

2 - Today I received a phone call at work informing my Son has had a toilet accident - a number and could I come and collect him!
He had to wait 30 mins for me to collect him and clean/dress him.
Later I spoke to the headmistress, who was unsure of the protocol of cleaning and helping soiling accidents and stated it was not in a teachers job description.
I am sure they must have dealt with this before.
My colleagues were staggered, as was I!
Any thoughts or experiences.
Thanks.

Well, I disagree that the teacher should take responsibility for cleaning a child after an accident as they are there to teach and taking the teacher away from his/her class to change a child is IMO detrimental to the other children in the class. I would not be happy if DD's teacher was out of the room cleaning children up and the teaching was left to a TA.

Yes it is sad that in some schools, mine included, parents have to be contacted to change their own child, thus leaving the child uncomfortable. BUT, as a trained Nursery Nurse and TA, I would be happy to change children because at the end of the day, I'm not responsible for teaching a class of children, and part of my JD as a NN includes changing children. I don't really understand why schools do not include this in the Early Years TA role tbh.

Sorry - should say "Teaching assistants take charge of the situation....."

MikeDadof3 - I think that you need to sit down with the nursery and agree a way to support your ds to become clean and dry. Obviously, in the nursery, reminding him to go to the loo every 45 minutes just might not be practical, so you might agree to stretch it first to every hour, and then gradually extend, both at home and school.

They are behaving very badly. I am at "it's not in a teacher's job description". A teacher's job desciption is particularly wooly, so children's general care is certainly implicit, if not explicit. She's talking out of her arse.

Check the DDA - with or without a care plan he should have been changed.

My DD had a few accidents when she first started reception (she went to a private day nursery before that) and the TA took her into the nursery and changed her and supplied spare pants and tights - it didn't seem to be a problem.

My DS has attended the nursery at our local primary school since sept, and has had several accidents-of both varieties-and is always changed and in clean dry clothes when we collect him. The nursery toilets have a large cubicle and a big box of pants and clothes. We have had many pairs of school pants and their policy is for the parent to wash them and return them to school. They use their own, rather than us sending spares (as we did with a private nursery). they do have some SN children and I think some of them may be in nappies still. When my DS started I asked about this as I was a bit worried as we were late with potty training him, and was told not to worry, it happens all the time and it is not a problem. The senior teacher for KS1 and foundation stage told me they have a shower in school and she had recently had to shower an older by who had an accident.
I agree with other comments-I would be horrified at a nursery that did not change a solied 3 yr old. Look at others on your area, there must be some that do this.

It seems to vary depending on the school.
My dd has a malformed bowel and has a few 'accidents' a day - she is in Reception in a state school and they help her get cleaned up. (Although I have had problems with TAs telling her off for being a 'baby', when it is something she has no control over...but a word to the Head has sorted that out).
She went to a private school nursery and they were great, showered her and re-dressed her each time.
However my friend is a TA in another state primary and she said that they would ring the parents to get them to come in and help the child change (which was stressing me a lot before dd started state school because I work 90 mins away from the school!)
Assuming your ds has no medical reason for the accidents is it worth taking him out of nursery until he's a bit older (if you really want him to use that school)??

katymac, yes I agree, it is not in keeping with the EYFS.
There is now no distinction between 'care' and 'education' under the legal obligations of the EYFS.
To accept young children is to accept all the care elements that go with them, and changing soiled children is obviously one of those elements.
For a teacher to say "I'm a teacher, I don't do poo" is a very old fashioned and slightyly superior attitude.
It's like me saying "I'm a nursery nurse, I don't do teaching"
It's simply not true, you can not separate the two.

I think you have 2 separate issues

• you child doesn't sound fully trained, staff will get annoyed changing your child every day
• the soiling, I agree with the others that they should have changed him

I think most school nurseries get round the issue by telling parents the kids should be out of nappies and most people aren't aware of DDA/EYFS

'staff will get annoyed changing your child every day'
then they are in the wrong job

I agree purepurple but if it's every day then perhaps the child is not ready for pants

I agree eldoneve, the child might not be ready for pants but the setting should be working in partnership with the parents to reach a solution, giving support and advice.

If the school doesn't want to deal with accidents, they shouldn't be taking 3yos.

It's all very well people saying 'you can't expect a teacher to change a child' but the teacher is employed to care for pre-school children, so yes, it is a fundamental part of their job - although it may be delegated to a TA.

The school is clearly breaking the rules - of the Earl Years stage and potentially the DDA. That's indefensible.

Kids also can have accidents simply because they are in a new situation. My dd was dry from 22 months and after the first couple of months really was pretty much accident free. When we moved back to the usa and she started at a new nursery (age 3) she had daily pee accidents for the first week and then was fine. And then 4 months later, I moved her to a different nursery and she had another week of accidents and then was totally fine after that. I would have been appalled if either place had refused to change or clean her.

Well as I said, I can see it from both POV. Whilst I would never leave any child of any age sitting in their own poo, it simply is not practical to take a child to the toilet every 45mins or even remind them to go.

Judging by this child's age, he has obviously joined as an early admission. Maybe this particular setting isn't quite right at this time.

Katymac, IMO, it seems ridiculous to say that care and education are cannot be separated and that you must provide education along with care. Surely what CMs are offering is something different. No less valuable but different. I mean, the 1-9 gradings which are part of the foundation stage curriculum include phonic progression and number work both understanding and application. My DS followed Jolly Phonics and learned to read before he started Reception. He also had a firm grasp of number work by then. This was taught by a qualified FS teacher alongside the play based elements of the EYFS.

So do CM now need to be qualified to teach FS? This seems an unecessary and pointless burden as in my mindthey are offering a completely different service.

my dcs went , still go, toa preschool
the staff write on a board if a child needs taking to the loo every half an hour etc when potty training
they say the are perfectly equipped for potty training
they are only open the 2 and a half hours a day for sessions so similar to what op describes i think

Far be it for me to agree with "this seems an unecessary and pointless burden " - but that is the law

I am required to teach upto 3st Augs=ust after the child's fifth birthday

I may not like it, I may not be trained or qualified to do it, I may only be paid a piddling little bit of money to do it compared to a reception teacher......but I have to do it

Umm did you not notice all the media cverage about childminders objecting (pretty much the whole of last year - culminating with appearances in Womans Hours, BBC Breakfast Time, BBC 5 live & BBC News 24 for KatyMac)?

I'm sorry if my post sounded patronising. I really didn't mean it that way.

What I was trying to say is that what I believe CMs offer is a safe secure nurturing evironment for babies and toddlers. Not an formal education programme. Most CMs are good at what they do, as are most teachers. Why force either of them to cover the others premise?

Ask the goverment?

They have defined Early Years children as birth to 31/8 after their 5th Birthday then decided to send 4yo's to school

In my opinion EYFS would ave been a perfect opportunity to separate EY & school completely

But who knows why they do stuff

BTW by 2015 (I think) most childminders will be expected to have an NVQ3 in childcare in education with the hope that they will go on to study for a degree.....I can't see it happening myself - but as I say that is the plan

BTW I am an accredited childminder which means I provide Funded Early Years Education to as high a standard as a nursery (well higher than most as I just received Outstanding from OFSTED for the second time)

Oh, poor wee thing.

At our nursery (attached to the school) they just change the children if they have an accident and leave a message on their peg that they have been changed. It is quite common for the first couple of weeks for them to have accidents.

I'm sure you are. I wasn't having a dig.

The truth is, whilst many CM may well have an academic background or have no problem with any proposed academic qualifications, many other excellent CMs may now see this as a barrier. Therefore the profession will lose many otherwise excellent practitioners.

How is this of any benefit to anyone?

Myredcardigan - you won't believe how much childminder campaigned against it.....but you know the government they just steam roller away

According to the DDA they cannot leave a child in a soiled nappy whilst they ring you and wait for you to come and change it. It is seen as a form of abuse/neglect so they have to change them.

Also our preschool has 36 children with 4 staff. When they have children who aren't too good with potty training they take them every 20 minutes so I would think yours could manage 45.

I think it also depends on the staff tbh. I have a teacher friend working in nursery who moved from being in Y5 last year as the HT moved all the staff around. I think it's taken her until about now to find her feet and I'm sure she'd be mortified if faced with poo just because she hasn't been used to it. Though I'm sure she wouldn't leave a child for 30mins rather than change him.