Can anyone tell me about discipline methods which don't involve punishment?

[CherryChoc]

What the thread title says, basically!

DS is only 6 months old so any discipline dilemmas are a while off yet, but I'm really interested and intrigued by the idea that there can be discipline methods which don't use punishment, as I always thought it was necessary. However I only seem to encounter vague mentions of it on threads so can anybody tell me more?

well I can you that the only child I've ever met who was brought up using what I believe to be a misunderstood(???? - I hope LOL) method of the positive parenting is a little shit who I will never allow into my house again - his presence at DS1's 8th birthday party was a huge black mark on the event......................ermm sorry perhaps not what you wanted to hear

Chances are you're right there FAQ - given that your post in no way addresses the question the OP is posing

well she did say can anyone tell me more..........so I told her my experience of a child who's never been punished

OP - Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn

Yep, Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn.

Playful Parenting by Lawrence Cohen is good too.

Neither are easy to put into effect when faced with a furious shouty screaming, crying 3 year old in the middle of the high street but, interesting reads nonetheless.

I'm interested in this too, although mine is only 11 months.

If it helps, my mum didn't really use punishment to discipline me and I'm not, and never have been 'a little shit'. Although, I realise you've only got my word for that!

That doesn't mean she went 'now, now my darling, you know you're not supposed to hit your brother over the head with heavy blunt objects, there's a dear, ha ha!' (followed by weak, indulgent smile and pat on the head).

I always knew she meant business, but there were never any threats of anything, other than her disapproval.

I don't know if it depends on the child or on the parent, but it is possible.

Yes, definitely recommend "Unconditional Parenting", although I have struggled to apply the concept to toddler toothbrushing. However, "Playful Parenting" definitely helped with that one eventually!

RaspberryBlower - now I know why I see many horrible out of control boys who seem to have pathetic 'upper middle class' mothers and absentee 'something in the City' fathers who sort of plead and reason with their kids when what they need is damn good talking to, removal of privelleges and a clear set of boundaries imposing and then some love and attention.

Positive parenting. What a load of rot. We have two lovely DSs and people comment on their politeness and kindness but they are also outgoing and positive so we have disciplined the life out of them.

Totally agree with your Mum's aproach.

..and yes I am being judgemental because my DSs often come up against the totally out of control product of pathetic positive parenting.

Some people have so much natural authority that they very rarely have to resort to punishment. My parents were of this kind. Once I had passed the toddler tantrums, they very rarely used any sanctions. On the other hand, they didn't need to use ineffectual pleading either. May have helped that they were both school teachers .

On the other hand, I have friends who are forever running out of more privileges to withdraw, but who still don't seem to have much authority over their children.

My own experience is that what works best is a mixture: most of the time you work with natural authority, but the child knows you are prepared to back it up if you have to.

I think there is a difference between positive parenting (where you aim to have positivity as the 'norm' and you aim for positive 'discipline'- but let the kid know when they behave unacceptably etc etc) and a Positive let them do whatever they want Parenting Philosophy.

I was a teacher in a PRU (for excluded teenagers in Hackney) so believe me, know about discipline. But I am def a hippy, positive, parent...

Ideas
-distraction (ooh, what's THAT? point at any other object)
-tell them what they CAN do rather than what they can't (works well for tinies - Rather than 'don't touch that' which is a negative instruction - v hard to process. try 'be gentle' or 'you can look at it' or even, 'you can stroke this bit'
-empathise and understand from their point of view. 'aw sweetheart, I know you want to look in the oven darling but it's too hot.' (works amazingly well - and also you realise then if you can actually just look in the oven with them... say yes rather than no if you can)
-if you do x, y will happen. make it v v v simple and logical. AND DO IT. 'if you draw on the floor again, i will take the crayon away'. give crayon back after a minute so they can do the right thing. make sure you can follow your consequences through (you don't have to be cross or angry). have heard some funny ones - 'if you don't come here now, Johnny we ARE NEVER DOING ANYTHING FUN EVER AGAIN'

Good luck. Try to keep a happy, positive bouncy Mom atmos - it really works (though am v often grumpy, shouty mum. Which doesn't work v well. but we are all human. )

ABetaDad, your post is aggressive and rude and shows a basic lack of understanding of positive, unconditional parenting.

I was parented this way- no punishments, no curfews, no sanctions. I think I'm fine.

I raise my dd the same way. She is polite- always says please, thank you, sorry, excuse me and waits her turn. We never tell her or remind her to say these things. She is happy, sociable and thoroughly pleasant to be around.

Pleased try not to be so dismissive of something just because it is not what you choose.

you know what ShowOfHands - perhaps BetaDad has had the same experience as me with regards to the way of doing things?

I know that the mother of the boy I mentioned earlier in the thread has chosen Kohn's methods - I remember her raving about the book at toddler group years ago. Her little boy was a handful then, but I thought - hey you know what - we're all different if it works for you fab.

Despite attending the same school as my DS1 (they're in the same year) they didn't really "cross paths" much again until the end of Yr2 which is how he ended up being invited to DS1's birthday party.

It was a battle from the start to get him to do a single thing I asked of him - it was worse than my DS3 is now (at 23 months!) and totally ruined the afternoon for everyone else as we put up with his sulks.

And before you say - well maybe he has SN which affect his behaviour - no it definitely wasn't that - the one child at the party who does have SN (Aspergers) was absolutely fine.

I discovered after the event that the boys own family (2 Aunties with 4 children of their own between them one of whom I'm very good friends ) no longer invite him to their DC's parties because of his behaviour and haven't' done for several years!

Obviously I hope that this is an example of positive parenting gone badly wrong - but when it's a known example (to me) of how badly it can turn out then it does make you rather cynical of the whole approach.

I must add - my own children are no angels, but the 2 that are old enough to go on "playdates" without me being there have been invited back for repeat ones - so I can only guess that they're not too bad when they're there.

That boy will never ever set foot in my house again, and that's a view which until the 20th September last year I vowed I would never take with the friends of my DC. I always said I would take the same approach to friendships as my parents did.......you can be friends with whoever you want, but don't let them influence your behaviour - otherwise you suffer the consequences.

ShowofHands - why are you being personally rude and aggressive to me? I made no comment about you. I notice you did not have a go at RaspberryBlower or Umlella for saying what I said. I agree with what they say. Why not have go at them?

I do understand proper positive parenting. What RaspberryBlower and Umlella say is what I do.

Your DD is well brought up and may also be a passive and agreeable and bidable child (some are and especilly DDs) who naturally needs little discipline. However a lot of DSs (and a few DDs) I meet are very out of control and aggressive to other kids and their parents are quite frankly not giving them any kind of discipline. They generally do adopt the pleading and 'let them do what they want' Positive Parenting approach which Umlella alludes to. It is pathetic to see.

I am sure your DD does not like meeting those kinds of children and getting punched and kicked either. I am sick of my kids meeting them and being hit as well. These are kids from well off middle class family homes with two parents - not broken homes in sink estates. A lot of middle clss kids are out of control and especially boys. It needs sorting out.

umlellala - thats the tack i'm taking with ds2 (2.8)! he has the devil in his eyes and doesnt respond well to being put on naughty steps etc.

so for the lst month i feel that every sentence starts with IF!

if you do not get in the car you will not be coming to the park with us!

if you continue to run away from me in the shop you will have no stories at bedtime!

it seems to be working because if he hears the word IF he stops whatever he's doing thats wrong!

oh and i'm not a hippy mother - just someone who's trying not to fight fire with fire!

I was not rude or aggressive to you BetaDad. I referred to 'your post' as rude and aggressive.

"I notice you did not have a go at RaspberryBlower or Umlella for saying what I said. I agree with what they say. Why not have go at them?"

Well quite apart from the fact that I didn't have a go at you, RaspberryBlower confirmed that she was raised this way and didn't suffer and points out that it wasn't 'pat on the head' weak parenting at all, offers a thought that it might be child/parent dependent and is not dismissive, stereotypical or rude about anybody. Umlella, likewise engages with the question posed by the OP.

What you did was use words like 'pathetic', 'load of old rot', 'upper middle class'. You implied that these children do not receive love and attention, you implied that parents parented in this way have 'absentee' fathers. You are the one posting angry faces and making assumptions. Of course you may come across children regularly that you dislike but I challenge your inference that this is 'positive parenting' gone wrong. I see nothing positive in the sort of parenting you describe and I see no real understanding of positive parenting from your posts.

FAQ, I have no doubt that your experience of that one child was harrowing and ruined your day but I don't think an anecdote of one child is enough to dismiss the whole concept.

And my child is in no way passive and biddable. She is spirited, challenging and curious in many, many ways. Again, you made an assumption that positive parenting does not make her the way she is, that is merely down to personality or luck perhaps.

You don't have to like it but you don't have to call me pathetic or label my way of raising my child as 'rot'. That's aggressive and rude.

I really think it depends on the child. Some kids respond to more relaxed parenting styles, some need more structure and discipline. I think you can produce poorly behaved kids with any approach to parenting, but lack of parameters is a problem for some children. My eldest definately needs a more structured approach.

ArcticLemming, I agree. You respond to the child you have and the needs they present.

There is a world of difference between positive parenting, and non-parenting and often people confuse the two, doing the latter while they think they're doing the former. You still need to set boundaries, you still need to guide and enforce. But Umlellala's post makes a lot of sense, guiding by suggesting what they CAN do is good. And it isn't a bad thing to say "no", it's a word they have to learn, but you don't have to do it in a dictatorial, confrontational way.

Guiding through positives is also good "carry the plate carefully" is better than "don't drop it" for obvious reasons.

I prefer the logical consequences model of discipline. eg- child refuses to get dressed in morning- goes to school in pyjamas; child fails to put shoes on before going outside- I warn them, but if they get a cut on their foot I am not especially sympathetic; they don't do their homework, they put up with the consequences at school (school fully supported by us, etc...). For untidy rooms, I ignore- not my realm, I don't even have to go in there. I find this cuts down on unnecessary micro-management of their behaviour, and means that the punishment truly fits the "crime" and therefore makes me look more credible as an authority figure. For the more complex stuff I'm encountering now (they're teens and pre-teens now), I find talking works best in most cases.

Some things we still struggle with- my son's online game addiction for example in the run-up to GCSEs. We kind of deal with this by a combination of nagging and password protection on the computer, so not entirely logical consequences there...

ShowofHands - I agree with ArcticLemming and I also notice you do as well. Some kids need more structure and discipline than others I think we can all agree on that.

TheButterFlyEffect - I totally agree with you too and especilly this bit which I do see all the time:

"where parents have been scared of their children being upset, so have allowed them to treat others badly."

I do so like a happy ending where everyone is reasonable and sees each other's point of view.

Some interesting ideas on here. I'll have to get reading.

My mum is no longer with us so I can't ask her what she did, which is why I'm glad I can ask you people.

structure and discipline are not the same thing as punishment at all - we have the first two but I've never been very keen on the latter

discipline is about teaching and leading by example really, and most really sticky behavioural situations are about 99% preventable