Can anyone tell me about discipline methods which don't involve punishment?

[CherryChoc]

What the thread title says, basically!

DS is only 6 months old so any discipline dilemmas are a while off yet, but I'm really interested and intrigued by the idea that there can be discipline methods which don't use punishment, as I always thought it was necessary. However I only seem to encounter vague mentions of it on threads so can anybody tell me more?

RN - your DD is a different species to mine. They wouldn't notice, let alone care.

no they do - I'm not the most house-proud person in the world anyhow, and when I'm down it just descends to close to squalor - they sit and play among it! If there's no space, they just push stuff to one side and carry on playing

When I'm ok (like at the moment) and the house is tidy >> they'll go "oh wow it's really tidy" and then sit among DS3's mess (which he creates as soon as I've got it tidy) and play .

Occasionaly they'll tidy stuff up - of their own accord to make space to play - but that's only when it's just been tidied.

and ROFLMAO at the thought of me "just cleaning up" - haven't sorted out the "morning mess" yet - DS3 is asleep, others at school...........I should be doing it now

i don't really know how better to explain it.

if dd isn't bothered about making someone cry then she just isn't. me putting her on a step or whatever only serves to teach her she will be put on the step if someone cries. it won't make her feel bad for the person crying..which presumably is what you want. we talk loads and i work hard to understand her. dh struggles with it but gets it now.

i let stuff happen as it happens, i let things go at her pace. i wait for her to make appropriate decisions. there is little stress or aghast or whatever in our house. family and friends often comment how she behaves and how we talk to her. yes she is an only, we have another on the way though. there will be a fairly big age gap, 3.5 years.

3.5yrs isn't big - it's medium (got 3.3 and 3.6 months between mine).

'tis a nice age gap though I've found

My understanding of punishment as I use it is that it is something unpleasant, the memory of which will deter the child from doing the same thing again. 10 minutes sitting on the bottom of the staircase is boring when you could be doing something far more fun - the child will realise that behaving well means the fun carries on.

You do have to explain what the consequence of bad behaviour will be, so that the child doesn't see it as 'random'. For example, ds1 (aged 15) has developed a bit of a habit of not coming home on time when he's out on his bike with his friends. This has a knock-on effect for the rest of the family, as I've been letting him stay out late-ish so that he can make the most of the good weather, and I give all three boys their supper when ds1 gets back in (around 7-7.30, depending on if it's a school night). If he's not reliable at coming home, I can't make sure supper is ready to serve, so their supper is delayed.

We thought this through, and saw two possible consequences to him of late arrival home - either his tea is getting cold on the side and will need microwaving (which will make it less nice, imo) or, when he comes home late one night, his home time the next night will be half an hour earlier - and that's what we've decided to go with. We've explained this to him, and he understands - and so far, he's been home on time.

I do also use punishments that will make the children think about what they've done and why it was unacceptable. I've made them write lines (boring repitition isn't fun, but repeating the fact, for example, that lying is dishonourable, may help the message home). I've also made them write letters of apology for their misdeeds - they'd rather be playing than writing in their best handwriting, and having to write a letter of apology may make them consider the effects of their actions on the person they hurt/upset/offended.

I agree RN that you won't necessarily get a small child to feel "bad" about what they've done, but I think there is a place for deterring them from doing it again when they're too young to really feel regret- an example would be when DD1 went through a phase of hitting DD2. I wanted DD1 to know it's not OK to hit - I realise I can't bring on the "light bulb" moment when she feels remorse. It doesn't mean I don't talk to her and "try to understand her" - I also acknowledge her feeling (i.e. "I know you feel angry" which I find very important.

Out of a matter of interest, how much would you just "let it ride"? Would you take your child home if she was hurting / upsetting another child?

I think part of the problem is that some children you can "talk" to until you're blue in the face - and still end up with no improvement in behaviour.

They're all so different - I've had to adapt 2 (and a 1/2 lol) different parenting styles for my 3 children as what work(ed)s with DS1 at 5yrs old doesn't work with DS2

I really don't think there's any such as thing as a "one size fits all" type of parenting - for the simple reason that no 2 children are the same and they all respond in different ways to different styles of parenting - so you have to adapt as you go along.

Of all the parenting books I've read I've not found one yet that would suit both DS1 and 2's temperaments - DS3 is obviously still a little bit of an "unkown" quanityt at just under 2yrs old - but at the moment he appears to be an eclectic mix of the other 2 >

Excellent post FAQ.
Agree with showofhands regarding ABetadads post.

a child will learn to tidy up just because they don't like sitting around in mess - ROFL!!!.

Please refer anyone who believes in that theory to my maggots thread last week.

Did I mention I have never ever bought my children sweets in their whole lives as I do not believe in rewards.

??

"if dd isn't bothered about making someone cry then she just isn't. "

Oh well, that's OK then For the sake of other children, let's hope that she is naturally non-aggressive. FWIW when another child hits mine, or they hit each other (or another child obviously) I want it to stop, immediately and preferably never happen again, whether they feel remorse or not is rather a secondary point.

I try to parent with natural consequences but several things (including violence) get very short shrift.

My kids would wallow in filth before they felt the need to clean up, incidentally.

"a child will learn to tidy up just because they don't like sitting around in mess - ROFL!!!.

Please refer anyone who believes in that theory to my maggots thread last week."

Or if they don't want to do that, lljkk, they can come and inspect the dses bedrooms - protective clothing will be provided, along with pegs for noses!!

I don't think AK says anywhere that is ok to let your children do things which hurt other people or damage things.

The thing about not punishing a child who has just hurt another child is that you can't make your child feel remorse and by punishing them you are sure to make them feel anger at you rather than anything else. Time out/naughty step etc is seen as a punishment by AK because the child is being sent away from the parent.

When my child hurts another child even accidentally, I usually explain 'so and so is hurt because of what you did' and then let my child go and play again (showing my child I trust them to be a good person). This is usually enough but on the couple of occasions that it has happened again because my child is over-excited or upset, I make them sit with me until they are feeling calmer.

I don't think there is anything wrong with taking your child home if you need to remove them from a situation.

I see your point, Otherside, but I would argue that time out, whether away from the parent or sitting by the parent's side but removed from play for a period of time, can fulfil two roles.

Firstly it can give the child a chance to sit and think about what they did that resulted in the time out - I use this with my children and I do know that you can only ask them to think about it, but in my experience they do come back to me having reached a conclusion that shows some thought has happened. I do accept that this applies more to older children, though I think it's valid to start asking it of younger children - if you ask them to sit quietly and give them a guideline of what you want them to consider - ie. 'How do you think X felt when you took the toy they were playing with?', 'Why does mummy want you to share nicely with eachother?' etc.

Secondly, I do believe that a negative consequence can impress on the child that they shouldn't repeat the behaviour - if I don't share nicely I have to sit and be bored whilst everyone else has fun. I don't want that to happen again.

And like it or not, as we grow up, certain behaviours will attract negative consequences. If you break the rules in school you may get more than just a quiet talking-to by the teacher - you may miss your playtime, or, when older, get a detention. An adult who speeds may just get a lecture from a policeman but is far more likely to be slapped with a fine.

I'm not saying we should be treating toddlers like mini-adults or dishing out detentions in pre-school, but isn't it part of our job as parents to prepare our children for the realities of life - and punishment for misdeeds is a reality of life. So isn't a gradual, reasonable and proportionate introduction of punishment or negative consequences, the way to do this?

But the point of unconditional parenting which the OP asked for advice on is that the parent should treat their child differently from the rest of the world because only a parent's love is unconditional.

Also AK's theory is that punishment makes the child think about the negative consequences for themselves rather than the impact their actions have on other people. (Doing the right thing for selfish reasons or doing the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do).

He also believes that children perceive time away from the parent as a punishment (love withdrawal). Obviously if your child is hurting others, he has to be removed from the situation. But alot of small children are put on time out for behaviour that is simply inconvient for the adult, eg for crying because there was only red plate and the other child got it.

Cherrychoc some interesting reads have been suggested early on in the thread. I would also suggest you read 'how to talk so kids will listen'.

"I think some people misinterpret them "

So do I.
Or....maybe it's me who misinterprets them

I don't know if people misinterpret them or not. I reckon that those who consider them to be 'a posterchild for permissive or submissive parenting' haven't actually read them though.

I'm dreading all of this.
I read or rather tried to read unconditional parenting and although I do I believe in loving your child no matter how they behave( no brainer), I still think that firm boundaries should be in place. I am not sure about the no rewards or punishment concept either. Surely that is just life- positive or negative consequencesa for behaviour.
As your child is living with you and needs to learn to socialise then positive an negative consequences (ie- rewards and punishments) should surely apply. Surely all human society rewards and punishes it's citizens according to societal conventions? I'm a bit confused about which positive and negative consequences are most effective.
I don't want to be authoritarian but at the same time I would hate to be too permissive. I would hate dd to turn out like some of my old students with massively cocky attitudes about their rights and entilements but I don't want her to be the shrinking violet that I associate with living in a dictarship. It must be so hard to get right.
I like the word no as it is clear and quick but I hope I will always back it up with an explanation. Ie;
''No you can't hit henrietta because it will hurt her. It is not nice and you wouldn't like it if she did that to you.''

etc etc etc.

Also I think that if my child hit another I would not give her a massive hug and tell her how much I love her but she must simply not do that. I think that I would definately show my displeasure and punish her if she didn't apologise.I would expect taht if another child hit my child too.
I don't know if children think that rewards and punishments make a child confused about if their parents love them. If they are from a loving home then they will know that they are loved even when mummy and daddy are very cross with them. I think it depends how the displeasure is shown - that's the hard bit.

I think I may have misinterpreted the book. Sometimes I think that time out without being locked in a different room amy help a tantruming child calm down.

Fab thread - just what I was needing. I do pretty well with DCs in the day time (stern look or counting to 3 is usually all I need, besides lots of talking about actions) but I am completely losing the plot at bedtime!!

I keep falling back on loss of TV etc for out of control bedtime behaviour but it just does NOT work with us. Yesterday was the worst night in ages

I like some of the ideas here, like using more obvious, natural and immediate consequences rather then a futile (IMO) ban on something that will only take place the next day, so in the heat of the moment to them seems a distant and 'unreal' threat iykwim.

CherryChoc What did your parents do with you ? Do you think they did you any harm?