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Would like to speak to Moondog about speech therapy/bilingualism. Can anyone help?

29 replies

Soph73 · 13/03/2009 14:09

Didn't really know where to post this message but hopefully someone can point me in the right direction

Brief history: DH & I have 2 sons and the youngest has Down's Syndrome. He is 11 months old. We live in Gran Canaria & there are no English speaking Speech Therapists on the island. He could have speech therapy in Spanish but it would mean (so we've been told) he wouldn't be able to speak English as children with Down's cannot cope with two languages.

Can you help?

OP posts:
Pitchounette · 13/03/2009 18:43

Message withdrawn

moondog · 13/03/2009 20:24

What complete and utter shit.
Who told you that?
I know scores of bilingual people with DS.

Bloody hell.

moondog · 16/03/2009 21:36

Where are you Soph? Wish you'd come back and discuss this with me further.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Soph73 · 21/04/2009 11:59

Have replied on other thread but will give you all the info here. It was actually the Doctor in charge of speech therapy who said that he wouldn't be able to cope. However, the speech therapist who he was seeing said that she thought he should carry on in Spanish. She believes that, although she has never heard of anyone with Downs Syndrome speaking two languages, it is not impossible.

At the moment his speech therapy has been stopped until we make the decision on what we want to do. By this I mean that the Doc in charge believes we should decide on 1 language. However, I can go back to him and say that I want Sam to start the therapy again, which is what I will now do.

This is just such a weight off my mind now, thank you soooooo much

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sc13 · 21/04/2009 13:36

Hello Soph73. My DS (3) is being assessed for ASD, and, to the extent to which he speaks, is bilingual (Italian & English). We live in the UK. I know it's not the same thing, but I'd be curious to hear how things progress with your LO, because when we finally get SALT for my DS, it will be in English, and I have been wondering what I should do about his Italian. I have no idea how many children with ASD there are out there who are bilingual. My thinking so far is that I can see the exercises the therapist does, and then try to do them with him myself in Italian (with some adaptations).

Soph73 · 21/04/2009 14:08

sc13 - that's exactly what I was thinking of doing, but the other way round. I have also been given the name of a couple of signing websites which I will look into. I'll definitely keep you all up-to-date.

One of the speech therapists did say that because (in Spanish) the way you form letters with your mouth is different, that would make learning 2 languages difficult. Personally I still can't get my head round this. Surely it's the actual learning of the language that's more difficult for children with special needs rather than the way they form letters. I appreciate that some children with special needs can't form shapes with their mouths, but do you know what I mean?

Also Sam is very lucky (I think) in that he attends a Spanish nursery & his occupational & physiotherapy is all in Spanish but his home life is all in English. He must be better placed than most children to learn two languages.

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sc13 · 21/04/2009 14:44

I am not an expert, but, like you, I suspect that forming shapes with your mouth can't be the essence of the problem, unless the child has a specific problem with mouth muscles or something like that. I mean, I can see how having an accent when speaking a foreign language is down to how you shape your mouth - for instance, as an Italian speaker of English I tend to draw my vowels too long, roll my r-s, can't really do tr in tree, etc. But when I observe DS, the problem is not the sounds (he actually makes some of the Italian sounds that English speakers find difficult, such as gl or gn, without problems), but how he puts the words together. Right now, my priority is language, rather than quality of the sounds IYSWIM.

sc13 · 21/04/2009 14:45

Sorry - me again. Have you tried the SN section? They are very friendly

Soph73 · 21/04/2009 15:03

sc13 - yes I do know what you mean. I haven't joined in any SN section yet. Will make sure I do so at some point.

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geekgirl · 21/04/2009 15:11

hi soph, I also have a child with DS and am bringing my children up to be bilingual (German & English). Dd2 receives speech therapy in English and English is the main language she hears at school and also from her siblings, but she does say words in German and understands German very well. I did research this extensively and and everything I've read about bilingualism and DS was very supportive.

Dd2 does undoubtedly have a lot of problems with speaking and particularly sound formation, but I don't for one second believe that these are due to bilingualism. The bilingualism is one area of language that doesn't actually seem to cause her any problems.

I've also come across ignorance and negativity from one speech therapist in particular, and it's not nice as the language you use to talk to your children is something so personal and important in a family setting.

Soph73 · 21/04/2009 15:25

Hi geekgirl. It's so nice to hear other peoples stories. Please forgive me if I don't put this correctly but I have always rightly or wrongly assumed that children with DS can excel in different areas of learning, e.g. maths, sciences, english, etc. So my thinking has always been that children with DS can/do do very well with languages. However, this may be completely inaccurate and I'm sorry if I've got it wrong but please forgive me as I'm still new at this

Have to go now as we don't have internet at home so can only use it when at work (naughty Soph )

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sc13 · 21/04/2009 15:29

Hi Geekgirl, thanks, that's encouraging (even though, as I said, my DS has a different SN). As you say, it's something so personal: I wouldn't know how to speak to my DS in English, it would just feel totally wrong. In fact, I suspect his Italian may be slightly better than his English (despite living in the UK), but have no idea how the British SALT is going to assess this side of his language

geekgirl · 21/04/2009 16:10

hello soph I have to say that dd2 is very delayed across the board really. The only thing she is slightly less delayed in is geometry apparently! She has always been good at recognising shapes etc.
She absolutely excels at being helpful, friendly and kind.

Generally speaking, speech tends to be one of the areas that children with DS really struggle with so I think it would be very unusual to come across a person with DS who is good at languages - however, that doesn't really affect whether someone can cope with being brought up in a bilingual environment.

geekgirl · 21/04/2009 16:12

as an aside, come and join the DS-UK email list - we're a friendly and supportive bunch!

moondog · 22/04/2009 12:09

Hi you lot.
Will get back to this, as have lots to say.

I'm so angry for you that you have been told such nonsense by people who should know better.

Soph73 · 22/04/2009 13:49

Afternoon all.
Geekgirl - have just joined the list Will try & take a look at some point this week.

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geekgirl · 22/04/2009 18:01

yes please get back to us, moondog.

I have to admit I do occasionally have my moments of insecurity. Dd2 has quite bad oral dyspraxia and her speech is pretty shocking really - very unclear, but she does at least have a reasonable vocabulary now of 100+ words, and does form 3 word sentences ("Where Hannah gone?", that kind of thing) on a regular basis. She is very chatty and will tell me about her day after school in a long stream of jargon with the odd comprehensible word mixed in.

Sometimes I do question myself and whether I'm not just putting another hurdle in her way, particularly as she will occasionally use German words at school (everybody there now knows what "Nein, nein, nein!" means ) - it doesn't exactly aid her being understood by others.

moondog · 22/04/2009 22:26

OK, where to begin?

  1. Doctors know nothing about language and learning and educational attainment, so ignore everything they say. They are experts in another field, namely the way the body works and should stick to that. This is probably the most important thing to remember. Mind you, having said that, most teachers of kids with SN know nothing about the subject either as they get next ot no training. The worst of all is the untrained 1:1 assistant woh arguably does more damage than good in most cases. I'l get onto best approaches later.
  1. The majority of the world's population is bilingual and a great many of these have SN. There is no evidence to suggest that people with SN cannot acquire two languages, so next time someone comes out with this, ask to be directed to the research which shows this. There is none. Geekgirl says
Dd2 does undoubtedly have a lot of problems with speaking and particularly sound formation, but I don't for one second believe that these are due to bilingualism. The bilingualism is one area of language that doesn't actually seem to cause her any problems.

'I've also come across ignorance and negativity from one speech therapist in particular, and it's not nice as the language you use to talk to your children is something so personal and important in a family setting.'

Shame on that SALT. Don't deal with anyone who doesn't have direct experience of being bilingual or working with bilingula kids or you wil lbe onto a loser. Also as Geekgilr says, if you do not speak your mother tongue with your child you deny them something so personal and important. It is a tragedy if people do this on the 'advice' of ignorant peopel.

  1. As I said, I work with many people with SN of various sorts, a great many of whom have language difficulties. If they have problems with one, they will have problems with another but that is no reason to deny them access to this additional language, thereby marginalising them further.

SC speaks great sense here

'I am not an expert, but, like you, I suspect that forming shapes with your mouth can't be the essence of the problem, unless the child has a specific problem with mouth muscles or something like that. I mean, I can see how having an accent when speaking a foreign language is down to how you shape your mouth - for instance, as an Italian speaker of English I tend to draw my vowels too long, roll my r-s, can't really do tr in tree, etc. But when I observe DS, the problem is not the sounds (he actually makes some of the Italian sounds that English speakers find difficult, such as gl or gn, without problems), but how he puts the words together. Right now, my priority is language, rather than quality of the sounds IYSWIM.'

Again Soph, the SALT you discussed this with was talking out of her arse.

  1. It's so crass and foolish to lump peopel with DS together. They are all different for God's sake! Some are loud, some are quiet, some are great communcators, some hardly speak at all. This may be because they are (gasp) individuals with individual traits. I know many adults with DS with whom you can have anormal conversation in English or Welsh, who read and write, have sexual relationships, live alone, hold down a job.
There was a link on the SN board (I'll find it) to an article about a (Spanish I think!) chap with DS who had obtained his degree and was a teacher. Case in point.
  1. There is evidence to suggest that visual processing of peopel with DS superior to auditory processing in many cases, so effective support with reading and writing is a good place to go. I have observed that it seems to provide a 'hook', in the sense of something tangible on which kids with poor language can latch and make sense of auditory sounds. I am looking at evidence based data driven intervention for my MSc into reading/writing for kids with LD.
Headsprout reading programme is the focus of my research. Whilst not designed exclusively for kids with SN, I am investigating its use with them. Nothing else comes close to it in terms of effective instruction. It costs about £150 to do at home and is superb (I have used it with my own dd who is bilingual and has language difficulties.It has made a dramatic difference to her reading ability which is age appropriate in both languages.)
  1. I mentioned earlier that most SN provision is pretty bad (well meaning but vague, lacking focis and use of evidence based practice). The best method of all to use is something called Direct Instruction which I am using. It is the most effective way of learning (as demonstrated in mammoth piece of research called Project Follwthrough in the USA, although for various sinister reasons, it is not widely used despite being head and shoulders above anything else. Google Project Followthrough for the reasons why.

The most imprtant person in this field is Siegfrid 'Zig' Engelman. Check out his website here (he has done a lot of work with kids with DS). Don't be fooled by the folksy tone.The man is a genius.
Prof. Engelmann's site

Sue Buckley was an early pioneer of work with kids with DS in Britain in the UK, in particular with reading and writing. Read about her here.
{{http://www.sue-buckley.org/story/ Sue Buckley]]

Good luck ladies. Don't be misled or put off. Don't trust anyone's opinion (as any exponent of DI will say 'Where's the data?' Only with this can decisions be made.

HTH

moondog · 22/04/2009 22:29

Sue Buckley

moondog · 22/04/2009 22:36

Can't find original link on MN (in SN forum somewhere) but here is a Spanish link with clip of the chap himself speaking.

To think that only 30 years ago, Sue Buckley was coming acroos institutionalised babies with DS judged 'ineducable'.

What a long way we have come!

(I know one woman with DS in her late 30s who desperately wants to leave home but as she told me with an exasperated sigh 'I have to stay with my parents because they argue all the time and I'm the only one who can keep them under control'}

moondog · 22/04/2009 22:37

Sorry, here's the link

Soph73 · 23/04/2009 09:42

Morning.
Moondog - thank you so much for that, it really has put my mind at rest. It is comforting knowing that there is someone out there who doesn't think that you're completely barmy for "allowing" their child to be in this sort of situation. At some stage in our lives we probably will move to an English speaking country, but at the moment we like where we are so it's nice to know that we can stay put without upsetting Sam.

Although there are plenty of parents on this island with children with DS, there is only one that we have found who speaks English. Obviously we should have learnt the language properly by now but it is difficult when all our friends are English speakers and we work in English. It is our aim to try harder with learning Spanish.

I am now completely convinced that I'm going to see the Doc in charge of speech therapy and tell him that we would like Sam to restart this. Obviously it's not going to be easy as there are no bilingual speech therapists on the island but, hey, nothing that's worth fighting for is easy in my experience. As my Mum says, "it's character building."

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moondog · 23/04/2009 15:29

Glad it's helped.
Yes, fighting for the rights of your child comes with the territory I'm afraid but you can do it!
Why is there a doctor 'in charge' of speech and language therapy?
That's bonkers.

sc13 · 23/04/2009 16:09

Hi there! Once again, we have children with different SN, but it was rather comforting today (first meeting of the Hanen course) to see that around half of the kids with suspected or diagnosed ASD involved were bilingual (this is London after all). Moondog, thanks for all the advice; if you know of any studies on bilingualism in children with ASD or indeed other SN, I'd be interested to read it

Soph73 · 24/04/2009 11:58

Moondog - all departments over here have a doctor in charge of them. The one that we see has also been trained as a speech therapist as far as I'm aware, however, that may not be his primary area of expertise. If it had been up to the speech therapist that Sam was seeing she would have quite happily carried on. That's why I'm going to arrange an appointment to see him. We do have an appointment scheduled for November but I want him to start before then.

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