So unbelievably pissed off with DD (4)

[SobranieCocktail]

She's always had a thing about poking people in the face or waving stuff in their face etc and I have consistently discouraged her from / reprimanded her for doing it. About half an hour she stabbed a fork at DS's eye (he;s 2). Miraculously it missed his eyeball, but made bloody holes on his upper and lower eyelids.

I am livid about it still. She just does NOT seem to understand how serious it is. She's full of apologies, but I can tell she doesn't mean it.

As a side issue she also will NOT stop chasing the cats in a mean way. Again I've been consistent in my discipline with this, and thought she would eventually grow out of it.

Am I expecting too much of a four year old? I really don't know what to think.

I'm actually beginning to get worried that she has some sort of behavioural disorder that prevents her from relating to others. (I'm fervently hoping that someone will tell me that I'm being ridiculous). She's very bright, and can be loving and sweet, but this cruel streak is freaking me out.

Oh that is NOT acceptable. No privileges for a very long time for that IMO. No TV, no games, no sweets, in fact anything that she thinks is fun is now off the menu for a long time and everytime she whines about it, remind her why. I would also now start punishing for any future "face waving" as in, she does it and it means a week of no TV or something.

You poor thing! and poor DS! so close...

Yes, I am going to impose BIG punishments from now on for any face poking/waving.

Does her behaviour sound worrying though? I keep thinking of psychological stuff re: cruelty to animals in childhood being associated with psychopathic tendencies. She also stabbed DS in the shoulder with a pencil the other day... I feel both ridiculous and guilty for worrying about DD turning into a psychopath

I dont think she is goingto turn into an axe murderer.

She sounds like a normal 4 year old to me, how does she feel about her little brother, is she maybe a bit jealous of the attention he gets as he's younger?

My 4yr old devleopd this trick of hitting whilst simulatneously yelllig sorry sorry sorry, I just told her sorry doesn work anymore, and told her she had to give her toy or whatever to her sister instead and apologise and later when they were calmer I'd ask her to kiss her isster and hug and be friends again. A bit hit and miss. But I dont think my 4year old is turning into a mad psycho either.

Is she at school, how does she behave there, how does interact with other children?

Apparently 5 is the key age where they begin to learn empathy; that other people do not have the same world view (ie not to ask 'Why is that lady FAT?' in the street), and where they can be left alone for certain things. Until then they don't have a real understanding of why they shouldn't do it. So I guess 4 is still too young to be a psychopath but I bet consistent withdrawing of treats/punishment etc would have a good effect on stopping the actual behaviour.

Gid thank you fuzzywuzzy...I've been refreshing this page frantically thinking "Oh God no one dares break the news to me that my DD is the next Rose West".

I'm not sure that she has any reason to be resentful os DS. I ignore them both equally I think she's generally well behaved at school. In fact I asked the teacher about the face-poking thing (which she had been doing to other kids) and she said that DD had stopped doing it. God, I suppose this means I'm going wrong somewhere if the teachers have sussed it . I do know that her favourite game at school is "fierce cats" though It doesn't sound very gentle.

Sorry - typos in last post..."God" and "of"

Slastrophe - that's reassuring. Thank you

Argh sorry Slashtrophe!

I think it would be a bit harsh to punish her for a week . She's too young to remember why she cant watch telly 7 days after the event. Although some 4yr olds have grown out of the hitting phase, some havent, she's very young to start worrying about it.

DS1 whose 4 does the waving things in my face thing an it drives me insane. He's got better recently - i did wonder if its just that they're not brilliant at spatial awareness.

However deliberately hurting your younger child was mean - was she upset when she saw what she'd done?

I'd have been furious too but think you're doing the right thing. Would also be very strict about anything waved in faces be it a book or whatever.

Not every small child who burns ants with a magnifying glass or pulls the wings off flies turns into a psychopath - and I think in your DD's eyes, the poking of DS/other people is maybe the same sort of thing. No real understanding that the victim feels pain/has feelings. It *is" all about empathy, as Slashtrophe said- and she'll get there in the end. It's part of maturity, I guess.

DS1 is almost 5 and he is slooooowwwwwllly learning that he needs to be less boisterous and his actions can hurt others.

She is not going to be an axe murderer, have no fear.

Agree 7 days is way too long to punish her for.
Have you tried star charts/rewards for when she behaves rather than misbehaves?
She may respond better to earning privileges/treats rather than having them taken away?

techpep - I think I am going to demote her to spoons only for a week, as it seems a punishment directly related to the crime. If she's been good about the face-poking etc I'll then let her have a fork again.

Tracey - no, she wasn't at all upset which is why her fulsome "I'm so very sorry Mummy" apologies just didn't ring true. I think you might be right re: the spatial awareness thing as well when it comes to general non-dangerous waving in the face. Farking annoying though!

Hassled - do you think there's any way of fast-tracking the empathy thing? (Seriously though....)

Lizzy - too long even for the spoon thing, do you think? Reluctant to back down on it in case it undermines the seriousness of what she did. I do usually do the rewarding thing, but it just doesn't seem to be working with the face-poking and cat-chasing for some reason!

She is way to young to be punished so long for an act that was a spur of the moment thing. Punishments should be immediate, not long and drawn out. You will just be setting yourself up for a miserable week with her.

I'm going to be contradictory and say there possibly is more to this. If it were merely related to developmental stage then all 4 year olds would be behaving very similarly. Many probably are but not the majority - this is why her behaviour stands out to both you and her nursery. Instinct is a powerful thing and you need to trust yours. This means ignoring the bit you know is mad about turning into axe murderer psychopath type of thing, but recognising the fact that she is 'acting out'. There will be a reason for this and that reason could be subtle and complex, but you - as parent - will have the best insight as to what this might be.

Try and see the wood for the trees and think what she may be trying to say through her actions. She is not fully egocentric at this age and experience will have taught her, as you rightly recognise, that this behaviour has negative consequences. Something is motivating her to continue and you need to figure out what that thing is.

Consequence at age 4 needs to be immediate and clear. It needs to make sense to a 4 year old, not necessarily us. The removal of fork is a preventative measure that is employed in any case and not that brilliant a punishment/consequence imo.

To find the best consequence requires an understanding of what the motivations are - is it attention, control, what?

hobbgoblin - can you give me clues as to where to start? Pleeeeaaaase??? I feel very thick I don't think her behaviour is standing out at nursery...I'll check with the teachers tomorrow.

MadamDeathstare - she enjoys frightening them. Or at least she enjoys making them scarper out of the catflap/

hobbgoblin - I'm guessing it's attention seeking and boredom. i.e. it happens when I'm getting on woth stuff (like cooking supper tonight) and she's left to her own devices with DS.

with not woth

Sorry, re. nursery I meant they are obviosuly aware so to some extent it has caught their attention. Don't mean to suggest you stands out like a total PITA!

In my experience, the most common fundamental issues behind behaviour are attention and control. Attention is fairly clear cut, they usually feel they're not getting enough or what they get is poor quality attention and there are different remedies for this. As we all know, negative attention will be sought when positive attention is not readily available.

With control, the issue is one of too much or too little. When they are not allowed to make mistakes or give things a go then you see frustrated or repressed behaviour, when given too much freedom or a feeling of being uncontrolled or life being chaotic or un-controlled compared to their norm, children will demonstrate controlling behaviour. That is, they may control their mini environment, their own behaviour, or try to control the behaviour of others. Anything that demonstrates an ability to influence cause and effect will be a lightbulb moment and may be developed as behaviour pattern which enhances their sense of control in general.

So, (with no other knowledge or obswrvation so don't take this as the answer!) if you take the scaring the cats thing as an example it is superficially a simple case of cause and effect; DDs sees she can cause a reaction and thus she enjoys this feeling. It is validating.

This is just one possible route of observation and questioning to go down. Ask yourself the following rather than simply assuming that with a sibling in the house it is simply a matter of a deficit in attention:

Has DD been given (inadvertantly) an overbearing sense of responsibility since birth of her brother? (Asked to 'help' a lot as a way of including her, but she has become overwhelmed).

Has DD been given a lot of compensatory praise since birth of DS?

Has DD been denied positive attention since birth of DS?

Has DD been very competent in her learning to date - is she lacking in experience of mistakes and errors?

There are loads more, but that will maybe give a diff. perspective on this.

God sorry for dreadful typing - my DC are being VERY naughty and running around out of bed for one superficial (bull shit) reason or other every 2 seconds.

Drink of water, toilet, missing go-gos. I am being a model of good parenting and sitting here typing and yelling "it's 9 O'clock!"

Oh wow Hobbgoblin that is all so interesting. I'm going to re-read and digest. Will you come back and help me more once I've had a chance to think about it? (It may take some time...I'm sloooow!). And thank you so much - your info is really properly helpful.

Sure, no problem. But as you are interested I want to add that I'm no child psychologist. I've trained as a teacher and worked with families/parenting and behaviour for years as well as studying Psychology more generally as part of an OU course, but I am absolutely definitely not an expert in the tarditional sense!

However, I have plenty of expereince so if I can offer that in terms of shedding some light I'm more than happy to.