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So unbelievably pissed off with DD (4)

31 replies

SobranieCocktail · 09/03/2009 19:05

She's always had a thing about poking people in the face or waving stuff in their face etc and I have consistently discouraged her from / reprimanded her for doing it. About half an hour she stabbed a fork at DS's eye (he;s 2). Miraculously it missed his eyeball, but made bloody holes on his upper and lower eyelids.

I am livid about it still. She just does NOT seem to understand how serious it is. She's full of apologies, but I can tell she doesn't mean it.

As a side issue she also will NOT stop chasing the cats in a mean way. Again I've been consistent in my discipline with this, and thought she would eventually grow out of it.

Am I expecting too much of a four year old? I really don't know what to think.

I'm actually beginning to get worried that she has some sort of behavioural disorder that prevents her from relating to others. (I'm fervently hoping that someone will tell me that I'm being ridiculous). She's very bright, and can be loving and sweet, but this cruel streak is freaking me out.

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SobranieCocktail · 09/03/2009 21:16

OK my first thoughts are that I'm guilty of not giving her enough attention. I find kiddy play mind-numbingly dull and have been spending too much time on here while the DCs entertain themselves. I do chat to them and interact just enough to keep them going iykwim, but I think it then all goes pear-shaped when I am genuinely unable to give them attention (e.g. when making important phone call, or when cooking etc).

I'm also 14 weeks pregnant and I've been feeling soooooo ridiculously tired and bad-tempered. This has contributed to the insufficient attention to the DCs, and if I'm honest she's probably borne the brunt of my rattiness...or at least she's more aware of it than DS but less able to understand it than DH, so is prob the most affected by it.

I've kind of muddled through since DS was born, and my attitude to her and (parenting mistakes!) have changed. I did start out expecting FAR too much of her when DS was a newborn. She seemed so big (she was 19 months old FFS! ) and I was prob too intolerant of much of her toddlerness. BUT because of their close age gap I would honestly say that I don't treat them very differently now.

That said I have recently started potty-training DS and rewarding him for wees on the loo with sweeties (argh...probably a side issue of crap parenting). I wonder if that seems unjust to her? I have been telling her how clever she is because she can do all her wees and poos on the loo though.

Re: the bit about learning and making mistakes - can you elaborate? She really is very bright and a quick learner, but I'm not sure what else to read into that. What sort of mistakes do you mean? How can I encourage learning experience?

Sorry - I'm not usually so "me me me" but I really want to help DD and you sound like you know your stuff.

OP posts:
nickschick · 09/03/2009 21:18

Im a nursery nurse NNEB(yes I know im always saying that ) and im also a mum of 3 so i know where you are coming from on both angles.

Unless you have real worries concerning her development in other areas cast aside your thoughts she may have issues,shes 4 shes still a baby herself shes still learning about empathy and feelings etc I dont not for a minute believe she wants to hurt her brother.

I think somewhere along the lines she has mixed up her ways of deciding her feelings and they are coming out in frustration with the poking and 'stabbing'- you need to talk through her behaviours consistently remind her how people are feeling and the way you expect her to behave,continually telling her wont work at this age she cant remember actions and consequences but what she can understand is feelings so play to her 'better side'.

The cat as much as you remind her to be kind is rather like a moving toy for her- she cant understand the extension of feelings to an animal yet so again continually reminding her cat is a pet who you must love and be kind to 'ohh look see cat loves you he likes his tummy tickled gently gently oh that is smashing'

Try and pinpoint the 'triggers' it could be tiredness,excitement even cherry pop....in the meantime i would advise her using plastic baby cutlery not s a punishment just s a safety precaution.

This phse will pass,I know it wears you down but when you look back at it it wont seem half as bad.

hobbgoblin · 09/03/2009 21:36

Just off for a chocolate krispie cake break but will reply on return. I like nickschick's suggestion re. the cat thing. Bit of positive diversion will be a valuable tool I think.

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hobbgoblin · 10/03/2009 00:07

Ok. I had cheesecake too, so was a while!

Re. the attention, given your feelings and circs probably the best thing to try and do is up the quality of attention and live with the lack. So, if in an hour you can achieve 5-10 mins of really good contact that is better than 45 mins of half hearted attention.

Good attention includes;

Getting down to her level
Eye contact
Physical touch
Repeating back
Listening without speaking - letting her tell you but showing you are listening using eyes and touch and nods and smiles.
When communicating directly, mirror speech and ask questions that make her think, and try to reply with real comments rather than just 'mmm' and 'uh -huh'

Honestly, 5 mins of the above is so much more valuable than a day of placating so you can get on with other stuff, whether mumsnet or proper stuff like housework.

Secondly, try and tell her how you are feeling to some extent. This will help develop her budding empathy. Obviosuly I don't mean give her a guilt trip about your tiredness and grouchiness, but you could discuss feelings with each other. If you have been irrationally cross with her, it doesn't hurt to apologise here and there 'i'm sorry i was so cross with you but mummy is very tired and feeling grumpy today'. It doesn't necessarily undermine good discipline to correct oneself and also teaches about fallibility. (My second area to address!)

At a Parenting course I facilitated we used the weather to describe our week - and I've sometimes suggested using this with young children who can't communicate too well about how they feel due to age. Sometimes, they can imagine a dark rain cloud or bright sun as representative of their feelings better than being able to say I feel grumpy or I feel happy.

Now, as for what you say about seeing your DD as 'big' when DS was born, perhaps she did feel over burdened back then and maybe she does carry a bit of a sense of that now. It's not a big deal, but it's worth considering in terms of correcting her behaviour.

If she is feeling like the big older sister then she needs reassurrance and confidence building. It's quite scary being the eldest child. I am one and if you read a bit about birth order then you can sort of see how this affects thinking, even from a very early age. That's not to say one should try and correct the situation, but it is something to be mindful of.

The fork stabbing could be her 4 year old way of saying 'I may be the older, smarter, more capable child here but it doesn't mean I can't be silly and babyish and needing in guidance (so guide me instead of expecting me to lead the way here with that brother of mine)'.

Re. making mistakes - you can talk about decisions on a daily basis so that she sees that there isn't an automatic right or wrong always, and that we are all learning and choosing and making mistakes. Just little decisions like choosing a packet of biscuits (or whatever) at the Supermarket, for example. Make a choice on something together, sample the biscuits, talk about the taste and give your opinions. Thumbs up or down? This way she will become confident in assessing her own actions and choices, and see that she doesn't have to get it right first time.

This type of thing is a good indirect way of learning about judgement without having to overanalyse 'self' too much. Such small acts can have big impact on an experience hungry child. I'd steer clear of big talks such as 'now why did you do that nasty thing to your brother???' this will just instill a sense of 'badness'. Sure, correct the behaviour and explain about pain and unkindness but don't make it about her own self worth.

Can you see here where the weather and feelings stuff comes in? You are equipping her with the language and familiarity needed to consider feelings when you do that which further grounds any discussions about how people may feel when X, Y or Z happens.

Don't get hung up on this too much. It will be forgotten soon enough as your DD moves onto the next stage in her development, but I still believe it is worthwhile picking away a little at why she is chasing cats and poking her brother, if only to help her understand herself better.

My feeling is that although children have phases of this and that, and generally we pass them off as we eneter the next challenge with a 'phew! thank God the pooing on the carpet is behind us' attitude...we don't spend long enough thinking about why our children do the things they do, and addressing the underlying causes. I think the more ironing out you do now, the better equipped our children are as adults. Quirks are great but some quirks also give us big headaches as adults so it's worth going some way to acknowledging our children's behavioural idiosyncracies and at least slipping them a few tools for dealing with them in case they need those tools when they are 30 and dealing with their DHs and DWs and own children!

Morloth · 10/03/2009 16:54

Kids do mad stuff OP, I don't think this is indicative of a bigger issue - but am not a professional.

I don't think a week is too long if everytime she asks why or throws a wobbly she is reminded of WHY. But we are a fairly strict family and I expect my son to learn the lesson. I once made him hold my hand when we were out for a month because he stepped into the road without me/without looking, it pissed him off and he whined, but he has never done it again.

I am amazed the cat thing doesn't sort itself out, are they declawed or something? DS learned very early on to LEAVE. THE. CAT. ALONE. cause she has claws and teeth and is quite prepared to use them.

cory · 11/03/2009 09:39

Dd was very unsafe round ds when he was a baby and she was 3.6. (So not that much younger than a 4yo.) In fact, I didn't even dare to leave them alone to go to the bathroom together, as I was afraid of what might happen. Jealousy, attention seeking- probably a bit of both.

The good news is, dd has not grown up into an unsafe or violent person. She can now (aged 12) be left in charge of ds for hours on end; in fact, I regularly let them go into town together on their own. And she's never been in any trouble at school or elsewhere over her behaviour.

I'd put her on spoons for a bit but not worry too much.

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