I can't stand it anymore

[WinkyWinkola]

My DS (4 next month) is the most objectionable, contrary, tantrumy, hostile child. But only at home. To everyone else outside the home, he's an angel with his excuse me's, please and thank you.

Yes, I know small children can be difficult but he is extreme. Everything is a problem to him.

For example, this morning, he flew into a rage because the honey he'd poured into his porridge melted. That was the first rage of the day. The next was because I'd asked him to tidy up his Tumblin' Monkeys game that he'd been playing nicely with. Then the next rage came when I asked him to get out of the bath. The next one when I said he couldn't have chocolate mousse because he'd not eaten his lunch. So that's four rages before 12.15pm. He was then sent to his room because he poked his sister in his eye.

His rages consist of him screaming and yelling and shouting, kicking and lashing out.

Is this normal? Is it really? Because I am not equipped to deal with this constant exhausting drain on me. It's been like this for two years now. I've tried talking to him. I've tried rewarding good behaviour with lots of praise and chocolate. I've tried shouting at him. I've put him in his room. I've put him on the step. I've taken away toys. I've taken away bedtime stories. Nothing seems to work in the long run. Thirty minutes later, something else causes him to kick off.

He starts school in September and currently goes to nursery for three sessions a week. I take him to swimming, mini gym, football and the zoo and the park each week to tire him out. He gets tired but he's a bad sleeper - so tense with nightmares and grinding teeth. He comes into my bed every night (which I don't mind - they're lovely when they're asleep) for hugs and to sleep there.

I am six weeks pg and this morning, after his first rage, had to have a little cry at the prospect of a whole day with this child. Wtf is wrong with him? Why is everything a cause for such rage? I'm worried that he's going to turn out with real mental problems because he is calm one minute and then an utter maelstrom of fury the next throughout the day.

This too will pass? Well, two years is a very long time to have been walking on eggshells. It's a big strain.

Even if you have no advice, thanks for reading this. It's helped to get it out because in RL, nobody seems to believe me and DH when we say how tense these rages make us feel.

I'm really, really sorry but I don't have any advice. My DS is 2.4 and can be frustrating. But I would only really try what you've done already.

I wonder if the HV might have some advice?

His bad sleeping could be having an effect on his behaviour during the day. Grinding teeth and nightmares sound like a quite a big disturbance for a toddler.

Or is he ok when he is in bed with you?

I don't really have any advice, just know how you feel as my DS can be very difficult. Some days I just reach the end of my tether with him and reach breaking point. This usually means I lock myself in the toilet for a cry!!

If you are pg, you might be feeling a bit less patient than usual today too. Take it easy on yourself, I'm sure he won't grow up having mental problems (or if he does, mine will too!)

Put a film on, chill for the afternoon with him. Tomorrow will be a better day.

winkywinkola - am so sorry - and sorry as well that I dont really have any advice.

How does he behave at nursery?

I have used 'How to talk to children so that they will listen and listen so that they will talk' after it was recommended to me on here. It changed the way I was interacting with my 5 year old.

I would pick your battles really carefully as well - you're going to be really tired and hormonal at the moment - I was much more prone to shouting at my ds when pregnant with dd and I had to take a step back and just remove myself a lot of the time

I would look at remedying the sleeping as well btw - even if it doesnt help the daytimes it will be a blessing once your new dc arrives/you get more pg.

Has he always been like this? My 4.5 ds has gone through three phases of this. First at 18 mths, next at about 2.5 - 3 and then 3.5 to 4.25. The bigger he gets the harder it is to deal with. Same as yours. He is the most delightful perfectly behaved little boy anywhere but at home. Not even my mum believed how bad it could be until she witnessed it for herself once (usually he also behaves well when we have visitors).

I turned in to a real shouty mum and hated myself. However since the New Year his behaviour has completely changed and he is happy at home too. I think it was a phase as nothing has changed at home or school to lead to this change in behaviour but I am so relieved that it has. It is really hard when people don't believe you too.

I also found his behaviour at home improved once he started school although it took a term to see a real lasting change.

If I had to choose I'd rather it was this way round. A friend of mine's ds was perfectly behaved at home but a nightmare at school. She found it hard to deal with as he just didn't behave badly at home and the school struggled to know how to deal with it.

Don't have any advice either, but feel really sorry for you. I notice you don't list that you have tried ignoring him? I find the best way of fending off a tantrum of any kind is to remove yourself from the situation as a type of silent protest. If my DC's did this I'd turn my back on them; don't look angry, don't repsond in anyway, just completely difuse the situation by walking away. If they follow you start quietly whistling a happy song under your breath and pretend they're not there. I can honestly say my DD doesn't bother tantruming because she knows I won't enter into any sort of battle with her.

I really sympathise with you Winky . Your DS sounds similar to mine. I honestly think it's pretty normal behaviour for this age group. And the fact that he can behave outside of the home speaks volumes. He can obviously control it as he does at nursery etc. My DS usually only acts up for me and DP. I was once told that its normal for them to have melt downs with their nearest and dearest as you love them unconditonally and its 'safe'.
I've tried loads of things. Now he's a bit older (my DS is 3.5) I have taken to igoring him when he flies into a rage and just carrying on with whatever I was doing....stepping over him if necessary. Once he realises that he gets no attention from his behaviour he soon stops. If it's confrontational behaviour that I cant ignore I put him in his room until he's ready to appologise to me.
It's difficult though. Some days I feel that he does things just to annoy me. of course I dont think he is...he's only 3 FGS!
I hope some good advice on how to handle this comes you're way. I'll be getting out my notebook!!

One thing I did do was to consciously stop the shouting as I realised that escalated things. I found that really really hard to do and sometimes I had to put him in his room and walk away just so I wouldn't shout. I changed to a low, measured tone when I wanted him to do something and I also picked my battles more wisely. For example last weekend he went to bed and then got up saying he wasn't tired. He sat on the sofa until 10pm (usually in bed asleep by 7pm). I told him that he would be tired for school the next day and that I expected him to get up early when I asked him to. He eventually went to bed (previously I'd have carried him up with him kicking, screaming, pinching, hitting me). The next morning he was shattered so we had a chat about his behaviour on the way to school to reinforce that staying up until 10pm wasn't the best choice for him. The next night he was in bed and asleep by 7pm!

I have no decent advice for you.
I am in a VERY similar situation to yourself, my son is 3.6 and his brother is 2.4 - they are both the same.
I wanted to extend sympathy and let you know that I trully know EXACTLY how you feel. My children are not fit for public viewing - seriously.

My Ds had a very similar phase at 4+, It was really horrible as it made me dread to go anywhere with him foe fear he would start a big fuss outside. It did last for a few month after his sister was born, I did put it down to jalousy as it eventually faded. Maybe your Ds realised that there is something a little bit different at home at the moment (even if he does not know you are pregnant).

I also found that the angrier he got the more nervous I got and it really became a vicious cercle. He has now started school, and, like MollieO found the behaviour got better from then.

Good post from MollieO there - its hard to see what we are doing from the outside that encourages them but through ignoring and/or responding in a different way (see book mentioned earlier for help) it can be done and the results with us were almost immediate.

getting shouty doesn't help - agreed. i used to ( and still dosometimes) ignore or sit and drink my coffee until it played out.

and a good mum trick is to look with distain and say " don't be ridiculous" and walk away - all very calmly.

have to say though, my children were on the whole pretty good at home but bolshy at school - i am rather a tyrant though

My 3 yo is like this at present- everything has to be just so or else- and tiredness has a lot to do with it. She does however have the added issue of a new baby brother to deal with- and this is why it has started.
The nightmares mean sleep is bad, so tantrums worse.
Could your son have a nap during the day at all? (my dd won't!)
We've started using the pasta jar to try and cut them down... and it is working a little.

There are loads of mn threads on it- you get a jar- every time they're nice, good, polite, do something first time, whatever- they get a piece of pasta to go in their jar. WHen they're silly, tantruming, disobedient, whatever you're trying to curb, they get a piece removed. When the jar is full, they get a present (new book in dd's case).

Of course now I have to stop her raging about having pasta removed from the jar....

Thready and Soupy know a lot about this technique.

My 4 yr old son is pretty much the same - except he is like that at nursery, too! . He finds it extremely difficult to cope if he doesn't get his own way all the time, over the most trivial of things.

We have just had the SENCo out to assess him at nursery - will hear back on Monday - but to be honest, I am doubting that he has any definable 'special needs'. I think he is just a very willful child who is finding it more difficult than most to manage his emotions.

Have you spoken to your GP about this? They can refer to a community paediatrician if you want them to, just to get a second opinion?

Have you tried completely ignoring him when he starts up? Sometimes I actually say to my DS 'I am not listening to you or talking to you until you calm down and stop behaving like this'. Works about 50% of the time, which is better than nothing.

My only other advice - and sorry if this sounds patronising - is to focus on the way he behaves between tantrums. Is he happy then? What does he enjoy doing? It's important to have some fun times together, to balance out the times when he is doing your head in...

I do sympathise with you. Best of luck.

Sympathies Winkola - you are not alone - there are always loads and loads of threads about recalcitrant 4 yr olds on here and I always try and reply to them because my dd was a nightmare at 4 - she has a very strong personality --- things have greatly improved recently though (a year and a half on).

I read somewhere that dc go through these difficult patches just prior to a developmental leap ... if that's any consolation ..

Just a couple of thoughts ..

would he be happier spending MORE time at nursery (this is coming from European perspective where all dc are in regular playschool from 2.5 - too young imo - but they all seem to cope v. well) you are giving him loads of exercise ...but maybe he would be happier with a more structured day or do you think this would exacerbate the problem?

Or perhaps this is a "control" issue? Can you give him more responsibility? Does he dress himself? Could he shower himself (under loose supervision)? Could you give him more "false" choices? (I was too molly-coddling of my dd until a friend pointed out to me that she was growing up fast!!)

One last bit of consolation ...

Someone else said on here that the fact that your ds feels safe to "express his feelings strongly" at home means he feels secure and loved with you so remind yourself that you are doing a good job with him!!

It absolutely doesn't mean he's got a personality problem or will grow up to be an angry serial killing drug addict[in case that has crossed your mind!}

Keep calm,keep to routine and try to move onto other things that he enjoys or make things into a game.

It will pass and it may be you have a sensitive child with strong feelings that he can't yet process properly.

If he is bright sometimes they want to be in charge,so try to be firm but in a not giving in calm way.

My ds1 would go into meltdown over mashed potato touching sausage~he mashed a pie up with his bare hands once!!

but it didn't last he is now a very bright sensitive caring and easy going 17 yr old.

Another vote for 'How to Talk...' - also 'Positive Parenting.'
If you're having constant battles at this age, it won't stop without a change of view.
Downward spirals can be gotten out of, and you won't believe your family life was ever like this.

What's his behaviour like at nursery?
I second Countingthegreyhairs post, but then again, I come from an European perspective ! We love our nursery schools on the continent...

I also second Mrsmattie, to always try to have some fun time together. And whenever possible 1 to 1. My 6 yrs old ds loves it when it's just me and him.
And congratulations on your pg.

My vote goes to 'How to Talk ...' also. This approach works well for all of us. Ignoring has never worked for my DS's tantrums and although 'How to Talk ...' technique takes no less energy than losing your rag and chucking them in their room, life is far more pleasant for everyone!
(Having said that, I did lose my rag this morning! You can't be perfect all the time!)

Thank you so very much for all your kind words and support.

I've tried ignoring him too but he follows me about, pinching me or tries to hurt a cat or his sister which of course does get my attention because I can't let that sort of thing go.

I think I will just have to pick the important stuff to dispute about. But when we're in a rush and he refuses to get his shoes on or his coat or even get dressed sometimes, it's pretty tricky. I can see him going to nursery in his pjyamas a few times. He's definitely a very strong personality that is seeking to control his environment. It's not like we ask him to do anything outrageous.

I spoke to the nursery today about his going for more sessions. They have no more spaces. Sigh. He is, of course, perfectly well behaved there. And lovely in front of everyone apart from his immediate family and my mum and dad, weirdly enough.

Oh I needed this thread tonight. It's so good to know I'm not the only one! Ds is 3 and is so strong willed, everything feels like a battle at the moment. I'm so tired of it. I was proud of myself this evening as I managed to persuade him into the shower by playing with his dinosaurs and saying it was their shower, so he happily got in. He wouldn't get out however and I lost it and became very shouty mum. He is another who is also an angel at pre-school.

Oh, just thought I'd say that I totally abandoned all my hard-learned lessons from 'How to Talk ...' this afternoon when I screamed and threw the tricycle out the back door in to the garden and later when I carried DS screaming across the road, DD dangling from the baby carrier in front, bike in the other hand. At least 4 neighbours out to witness my wonderful parenting!
Ah, the joys. Lucky he was scrumptious at bed time (after I wanted to scream at bathtime with all the buggering about)!
Breath!

I'm a bit iffy sometimes about the shouting doesn't work mantra. I don't mean turn into a screeching fishwife at the drop of a hat, but the problem with always being calm and quiet and ignoring bad behaviour/praising the good is that with some children I think that just makes the bad behaviour seem vaguely acceptable.

I don't think it does children any harm at all to learn that parents have a tipping point. Controlled shouting, or maybe just a very loud firm voice, can show the child where the tipping point is.

Well, everyone in the neighbourhood saw my tipping point this evening!