Do you rely on school to do the hard work of saying 'no'?

[Blu]

I have seen, in discussion on threads about school uniform and lunchboxes, people raise the fact that a school rule makes it easier to say no, because you can just say 'school don't allow it'.

Isn't it even more important in the face of advertising and peer presure that WE as parents are able to say a Big Firm No, mean it, and stick to it?

Are parents becoming wussy? (not being personal about any individuals who may have added this as a pov in a discussion, but raising the question of where we get our resolve from - or whether we are losing it.

I had a very liberal childhood - Mum was not especially strict - but she was very firm on her own boundaries on what we would and would not wear or eat. Or watch on TV.

But don't you think it was easier when we were children (don't know how old you are btw) because there simply wasn't as much 'stuff' or so many choices, and there were fewer expectations. So it wasn't neccessary to be as strict. Every advert, every shopping trip, every visit to a friend's house presents children with choices that were simply not open to me as a child. I sometimes feel that I spend my entire time saying no.

I do use the 'school doesn't allow it' line from time to time but obviously that only works some of the time. Anything that makes life a little bit easier.

We say 'no' to lots of stuff (and maintain a firm position that anything advertised on TV is by definition rubbish ) but I still hide behind "School says..." on some issues (like what toys can and cannot be taken into school)

It's only the same as setting a timer for when the kids have to tidy toys away, get ready for school or whatever - it's using outside authority to show that it's not just mum being the baddie again.

Of course when kids are in a reasonable mood/old enough, we can extrapolate by saying: see, just like kids are not allowed by law to drink alcohol because it's bad for them, so school are helping parents teach kids what is bad for them, or showing them in case they don't know... it's the old "It takes a village to raise a child" adage in practice. And a safety net for kids whose parents wouldn't think/know to say "no" themselves.

Am I making sense?

I would say it's more the other way really, in that i have seen more threads about parents being cross that the school have banned certain foodstuffs/toys/clothing etc and are adamant it's their right to choose.

In my house if i say no it's because i think whatever they are asking for is inappropriate. I don't need to hide behind the school. (strict mummy emoticon)

I'm the queen of No!

I say it before I even think

On one level, yes,

On another level, you might argue that we should not have to put up with advertising and constant marketing at our kids and that society at large should support parents in trying to bring up their children, rather than placing obstacles (like marketing, tapping into pester power etc.) in our way.

I guess that depends on having a pretty homogenous society with everyone having pretty much the same values though, so would never work.

I agree that most people are on the 'my right to pack lunchbox' side.

I do say 'you have to do your homework now because it hAS to be in on Friday' etc - because that actually is the case. But if I didn't want DS to wear some ghastly shoes i am quite happy saying 'no because I do not think they are suitable / cheap enough / practical' or whatever.

I don't actually seem to spend much time saying 'no' - DS doesn't pester for stuff, toys, clothes or food / sweets. So maybe that's why i'm, happy to give the Big No without back up from school, and love our uniform-free school, and rail against lunchbox restrictions!

There is a zoo in the country where DS's grandparents live where you can pay to go in an enclosure with lions. They are cubs - but twice the size of a labrador. The keeper puts bits of meat in a tree and they jump up, and they mill round you, and you can even stroke them. DS is DESPARATE to do this, and I have said NO. I am sure it would not be legal in this country, and I am hoping it will soon be stopped in this particular place, but I just say 'NO' because I don't think it's safe. DS is wheedling that his cousins have done it, and that this is evidence that it is safe and i am unreasonable...

LOL am with you on the lion thing

I think most people use school as a back up argument when they can't be arsed to negotiate any more, rather than as a substitute for their own authority.

I always say no and then may change it to a yes later, if it suits me.
But some parents find discliping very difficult and if it works for them to pin it on the school then it's better than nothing but it'll bite them on the ass one day.

Don't really get the OP. What's to be upset about?

Beyond a certain age peer pressure becomes terribly important. A school with clear boundaries can be a relief to both child and parent.

A liberal school can be intensely dispiriting. Being told the teachers don't mind about homework/dress code/swearing/phones in class leaves one high and dry. Beyond a certain age children have as they should a certain autonomy outside the home and I'm not sure your post recognises this.

For this reason I approve of random drug testing in schools. It is much easier for a teenager to say "I can't -- I could be tested" than "No".

If I say "no" I always try to explain why in terms that the DC concerned can understand and that are truthful. I really, really don't believe in hiding behind "rules" or "laws" to say no. Rules and laws have their reasons and children need to know why.

I think this is part of a general abdication of responsibility in society actually. It's like one of the mothers on that 'boys and girls on their own' or whatever it was called the other night - she said she hoped that it would teach him to stand on his own two feet. Surely that's our jobs as parents?
It's a bit of a bugbear of mine actually.

I too am the queen of no. My gut reaction is to say no first. If you do that, it gives you room for manoeuvre. There's no way back from a yes ...

I think that is what I was wondering, Spicemonster.

I saw a little of that programme the other night - and at the next opportunity set about teaching 7 yo DS to peel potatoes!

Certainly at DS's school I see teachers having to introduce things that should have been instilled as the norm at home long before the child reached school.

"Certainly at DS's school I see teachers having to introduce things that should have been instilled as the norm at home long before the child reached school."

I think this is a hard one. "What should be the norm" is so culturally laden...

I don't understand this "kneejerk no" thing. If you say no as a kneejerk response, but then change your mind on a regular basis, surely it's more difficult to get your dc's to understand that No really means No and you're not going to negotiate about it?

Anna, I think that's true, the norm can indeed be culturally laden, and it's important to unpick that.

But there are children in DS's class whose parents make no attempt to suport thier children in teaching them practical or social skills and leave it all up to the school. Whether it be kicking people or washing hands after using the toilet.

DS uses a wheelchair. Other children are not allowed to push him in the playground. There is a boy who has repeatedly ignored this rule and pushed DS very fast (children pushing cannot see where they are going! A crash would cause serious problems because of DS's treatment), DS has asked him to stop and been laughed at. On one of these occasions the Deputy Head leapt through an open window to rush over and stop it. The school spoke to the parent. She said 'well he does it when he's at school - you deal with it, it's not my problem while he's under your care'. He did it again - I spoke to her. Nicely. She said 'well tell the school to stop him, he just thinks it's a fun thing to do, what can I do about it?'.

But I suppose that isn't even going as far as saying 'no, because school says 'no''!

I have no trouble at all with the word 'NO'.
I give my reasons-I say that they will thank me eventually and I am sure they will. I can appreciate my mother now that I am on the parenting side.

but that's just shockingly lazy parenting at it's worst Blu.
I don't understand how that woman would have the audacity to refuse to discipline her child when it puts yours at risk.
I seem to say no a lot and I'm very definite about it. I"m hoping that it's an age thing as ds1 is 9.4 now and is trying to push boundaries all the time. I always explain why it's no, and when he's being reasonable he seems to understand.
I'd be saying no to lions too btw

She just sounds thick and irresponsible tbh

Or if I'm feeling charitable, she may have spoken to her DS about not doing this at school, and feel a bit defensive and embarrassed about it, but unable to articulate that.

Too often it's the former though.

I seem to say I said no so I mean no far too many times a day

She definitley isn't thick...and she wants school to discipline him for it...the poor child spends hours sitting outside the head's office because of all the disciplining she want the school to do, rather than her

But...it's not quite what i had in mind when I started the threda...but I feel a bit unclear about it.

It just struck me - that people wanted to be able to cite the school on something rather than put their own foot down firmly.

Obviously the behaviour of the parent and child you give in your example is truly shocking and outside the boundaries of anything generally considered acceptable in any modern, developed culture. How sad and worrying for you and your DS. That isn't about the parent hiding behind the school though - it is about parents who just can't be bothered to make their children adhere to any concept of consideration for anyone or anything other than their immediate desires.

Yes - a bit different from wanting to be able to tell your child they can't hava caramel wafer because school says no!

(And luckily the vast majority of DS's friends and parents are fabulous in every way)

LittleBella - it's not a kneejerk 'no' (although I appreciate that's probably how it came across in my post!). It's more that it's much easier to say yes to children than no and I think we all have a bit of a default setting.

I'm more of a no than a yes person because it's up to me to be the adult in my relationship with my DS. I have to give him boundaries and teach him how to behave, what's right from wrong. I don't plead with him to behave nicely or placate him with treats. A lot of parents think that's how to be a decent parent. And then when their children have no boundaries, think that it must be the school's fault (as that's generally the first official body their children come into contact with). I have long thought that the fact we have no compulsory parenting clases is a massive flaw in our education system. Nearly all of us will go on to parent one day. And whereas in the past, people learned how to parent from their families and their wider social network, the fractured world we live in mean that people simply aren't learning those lessons. Most of the 'bad' parents who fall foul of SS are not evil, they simply have no idea how to be a good parent and don't have the wit to find out.

Sorry, that went a bit beyond saying no didn't it!