Calling all UP parenting types - I need help (oh boy do I really need help)

[Lazycow]

OK - Ds (3.8yrs old) and I are knocking heads again. I really am trying to see things from his point of view unfortunately my own emotions and my need to get stuff done does get in the way.

This morning ds was fine at firs, then at the point where it was nearly time to leave he was watching some TV and I explained that we would have to leave (I work and ds was going to nursery) after the next episode of Charlie and Lola he wanted to watch (was taped off the TV).

Unfortunately the taping process hadn't worked properly and the programme stopped a couple of minutes before the end. Very disappointing I know - Cue for ds to wail and gnash that he wanted another one. We really didn't have time as I'd have been late for work.

I then tried to be sympathetic (not too hard as at this point I felt quite sympathetic). 'I know it is diappointing etc'.

The problem is this sort of approach usually drives ds wild with frustration and anger and he starts shouting 'DON'T SAY THAT, DON'T SAY THOSE WORDS, I'M NOT DISAPPOINTED etc..' I know this just means he is diecting his anger towards me (not unreasonably really as I am the one saying we have to leave).

So I try again ' I know you really wanted to watch that programme.' The programme finished before you wanted it to, you really wanted to watch it etc..'

At which point he then started hitting and kicking me. Not incredibly hard but hard enough nonetheless.

At this I'm afraid to say I saw red. I picked him up and told I did not like him kicking me and uncermoniously put him in his room I then walked away saying 'DO NOT KICK ME, I DO NOT LIKE IT'(well almost shouting really though more in a firm discipline way than screaming harridan IYSWIM)

This is a bad approach with ds as me sounding cross (which I most certainly did) makes him even more frustrated and angry at me for a while. Then he starts to say 'Mummy don't be cross, don't be cross' and I end up on a complete guilt trip.

We sort of made up but Ds was obviously still upset so made every effort to avoid coming down the stairs to the car - thus making me worry I'd be even later for work which started another power struggle.

So we had yet another morning where I found myself walking away from a crying (screeching really) 3 year old saying
'Right that's enough - are you coming or do you want to stay here on your own?' or some such thing .

This always leads ds to come running in an absolute panic that I'll leave him and usually results in yet more wailing and upset and I end up feeling guilty at mishandling yet another situation.

This is very long and is really just one example of the sort of conflicts ds and I have every day, usually several times a day.

How do I do this, I am completely lost really?. Getting cross and using more a more 'discipline tyoe approach just doesn't feel right to me and seems to make him so upset. Also I end up feeling terrible even when he complies.

However empathy and validation just seem to send him wild with anger at me which I find very difficult to deal with in a loving way.

With tantrums I don't ignore and never have really. I usually stand quite close by and try saying something if that makes things worse I just wait it out if possible. I generally say that I available for a hug when he needs one.

Usually by the end of the tantrum he does ask for a hug. He never gets what he has asked for or the thing that the tantrum was ostensibly about. I say ostensibly because it is obvious sometimes that the tantrum was not really about the 'sweet', 'TV', 'cake' or whatever he couldn't have but just because he is frusrated, tired, hungry or whatever.

This morning wasn't really a full blown tantrum as he calmed down pretty quickly really though there was more whinging,playing up and crying as we left.

I was trying to empathise this morning because quite often I do the 'Well we can't, so come on' and then we leave with ds being taken to the car crying and screaming' I was just looking for ways to avoid having to do that every morning.

Most mornings we have some sort of issue and most times when I pick him up from nursery. I won't bore you with the details of his paddy yesterday at pickup time.

I knew someone would suggest no TV in the morning and I really wish I had the strength for this as I think this would be better.

We already don't allow TV until he is washed/dressed and had breakfast.
Since he usually gets up at about 6am (earlier this morning) we usually have at least 1.5 hrs hours of reading, playing, helping mummy, making things etc before I make breakfast (usually at at about 7.30/7.45am). Then he gets dressed and gets some TV until 8.30am when we leave. I usually use that 30 mins to shower, dress and do a couple of things.

You know I have noticed that our days at home (I work 3 days) are generally much more peaceful though by no means perfect of course so I'm sure he just prefers being at home and is making the only protest he knows how to about going to nursery.

I rely on TV in the morning to do do dd's unruly hair. I learned through bitter experience to record her favourte show and put it on so that it finished in good time to go. Because it's recorded, it just stops, even if I'm running around somewhere. So no arguments. In the early days I got the timing wrong a few times resulting in much wailing and tantruming and late mornings.

It's always about time isn't it? Trying to get anything done to a schedule is a nightmare.

DD gets fantastically upset if I get angry and then I am crucified with guilt. I sometimes chat about what's happened later butnot at the time - she's too demented. I find that she doesn't forget though and some explanatory chat is good over the long-term. I try to just chat as if she were an adult but keep it simple. She gets the gist of it - and seems interested and responsive to the idea that there is some sort of explanation for why she should or shouldn't do things even if she doesn't understand all of it. So I think later chats can work - degree probably varies among dc.

Tantrums have really kicked off though recently (she's 3). It's exhausting and I just hate the conflict. Nothing worse than going to work feeling like the worst mother on the planet, eh?

Just seen your last post - so is the problem that TV has become the cue for leaving, but is also probably the hardest thing to tear him away from? could you shift things round so that he has TV earlier, maybe while you are showering and doing other jobs, then you BOTH get dressed together and go out?

sorry, meant to type 'so is PART OF the problem'

Zazette

Maybe but I have a tendency to think that he will just get upset earlier and we will have the tantrum then but then at least I have time to deal with it I suppose.

We do ration TV quite a lot and ds seems inordinately fond of it unfortunately - maybe that is because we ration it.

I have a friend who leaves Cbeebies on all day and although that isn't what I'd choose to do I have noticed that her children don't really watch it most of the the time.

She also says that one downside of having it on all day is that it loses it's appeal a bit so it is more difficult if not impossible to use it as a tool for getting a bit of hassle free time to do things.

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UP is Unconditional Parenting (book by Alfie Kohn) It is a sort of more extreme version of How to Talk.

I''ve just read it - Can you tell?? and am trying to be more unconditional but the real me keeps coming through

Yes, he might get upset earlier - but he might not if TV ends at less of a flashpoint moment.

The whole UP thing is difficult isn't it? I do aspire to it, but essentially I find I can manage it in the school holidays/sometimes at weekends, but in the week when there are so many complex external constraints to be dealt with, it can all go horribly wrong. I think you have to be a SAHP doing autonomous Home Ed to really make it work!

Funny you should say that Zazette. I keep having firtatious moments with the Home Ed threads. I love the idea but don't think I could do it in reality and as Ds will be an only I think it would be too hard on him (and me)

And yes I agree - Alfie Kohn is really only practical in the situation you describe. It was an interesting read though and has made me think.

I think the example you have given just demonstrates the imherent difficulty of rushing a child of that age in the morning. I don't thin it's about what you say, it's about what is actually happening. I would seriously consider getting myself up (even) earlier so that things were less fraught if I were you, so as to make sure you are ready to go before he gets woken up. I've never allowed morning tv except at weekends as I think it makes things worse.

Much sympathy though, it's not easy.

PG - I have been contemplating that myself recently. As Ds was geting up at 5am most mornings until about 6 months ago I could not face getting up earlier but as his wake up times are nearer 6/6.15 nowadays I could probably get up at 5.30am on work days now and get myself sorted first.

I may try doing this as tbh DS's face is always a picture of happiness when he wakes up (on the very rare occasion) later and finds me already dressed and ready.

I have not read the book but something i think really important is to teach children that they can be "told off" or that some behaviour is unacceptable and that they are still loved. How is this done in a UP context? Teaching children how to say sorry and back down from a tantrum is vital if they are not to be scared of these feelings and frustrations in the future

I haven't read the whole thread, but I know we used to have battles to get out of the door on time, usually due to telly watching. We decided to ban telly before nursery/school and it made things a lot easier. It did take a little while to adjust, but once we'd established the rule, it wasn't questioned by anyone.

Breakfast in front of TV is now a weekend treat, and so much appreciated.

Hope this helps.

Lazycow - trying parenting approaches from books that don't tie in with your basic personality type can lead to some very stressful and amusing moments.

One of my more laughable attempts to change my parenting style with my dcs when they were in their early teens was met with cries of derision and sneering comments along the line of "so that's your parenting style of the moment is it" - so I decided to do what comes naturally most of the time - and yell when I was cross!

Wow - this is scary! I have a three month old boy and after reading this I am making a mental note not to read any book ever on how to talk to a child! I must be terribly old fashioned but I always thought that the parents were the boss of the kids, not the other way round. Is worrying that someone should feel guilty about getting cross over their child hitting and kicking them. Sorry if this post winds anyone up but I am not in this position yet so can't talk from experience. Went to see a nursery the other day and they said they have banned the word no. What is the world coming to?!

I tell DS to "Suck it up" a lot and "Life's like that sometimes, crap isn't it?" and then continue with what needs to be done. I may even have used "Life's a bitch".

Have also learned that TV before school/nursery = BAD idea, he is a total mess for getting dressed and stuff if he has watched TV as opposed to just hanging out in the morning.

My DS thinks that at eight o'clock the TV automatically switches to News24 it might be blatant lies but it works. Just hide the remote and don't let him see you do it.

Incidentally for those who recommend books instead, I was a total bookworm who used to throw tantrums from the age of 3 (apparently) if a book was taken off me before I had reached the end. Of course on school mornings I was the slowest reader in the world This made mornings pretty fraught I understand. So nothing really changes, if you're a stroppy kid who's testing the boundaries and wants your own way, you'll find a way of testing them no matter what choices the parents make.

I taught my DS to go into the corner and stamp and shout or to run round the garden when he's angry - it works a treat.
By the way I still have a bit of a strop if someone tries to forcibly remove me from a book

Just to say - it does get better. My ds is 4.5 now and used to be like this. Now he's not so bad.
I used to bribe him with a biscuit if he got in the car toot sweet.
Or threaten that there would be no more TV if it caused arguements like that in the mornings.

Also - when does he have breakfast? I found that if ds had been up since 6 - he was dipping in energy and food levels by then. So would force some milk or a smoothie on him close to leaving time.

Amberc, even when you know that it is justified and completely necessary, it is hard not to feel bad inside when you do something that upsets your child. I think it is instinctive.

A nursery banning the word 'no' sounds very strange to me! Surely you have to have 'no' for safety at least.

Amberc,I understand what you're saying but don't forget that a parent with a first child of any age is always in a new situation and always learning, trying to do the best thing and quite often getting it wrong! One doesn't automatically become Mum of the Year when your baby grows into a toddler, in fact this is when the real challenges start (IME anyway!)

OP, I think you sound just like me with my ds - I tried lots of approaches from many parenting books, and just used the things that worked for me but didn't stick to any one style. After a while it just seemed to get easier, I guess as I figured out his personality and what makes him tick. I agree the overly cloying, patronising approach doesn't work half as well as you'd think, but the more matter of fact 'shit happens' can work wonders. Sometimes kids just like to be told what's what without any discussion - it makes them feel secure knowing their boundaries. My big problem is setting out those boundaries in a calm non-shouty way..still practicing that one

I agree with the clear times/ structure ideas - here DS knows that after breakfast it's teeth clean, shoes/ coat on, then out the door. We struggled for ages until we made that rigid and gave it time so we didn't rant at him - he accepts it so the times he plays up are far less frequent and mornings are far far easier as a result. Also have you tried making leaving the house more attractive? Somehow make getting into the car a thing that he wants to do. We walk to nursery so I make up a story on the way for mine. If that's not for you, howabout audio books?

Depending on his personality he might respond well to having a checklist. Not a reward chart, but a list of the things that need to be accomplished on a nursery morning, in the order they need to be done. For pre-readers a picture chart works.

Using a checklist has made the process of getting three dcs out of the door with everything and without tears or tantrums so much easier.

I think both of my sons feel much more in control of the process because they know what needs to be done and they are the ones ticking the list. It's really cut out that morning refrain of "please get this" repeated 25 times. They also don't feel as though they're being told.

On the kicking/hitting front, it's great that you want to address how upsetting he found your reaction, but it's important that the fact that he was partly responsible for it doesn't get lost. It's not ok to kick and hit out of frustration. You need to show him respect, but he also needs to respect you. I know he's not quite 4, but that's old enough to start understanding that lashing out physically is not on. There's no need to rehash it, but don't let that get lost in your guilt over losing it.