My son refuses the use of a toilet, soiled himself up to six times a day need help!!!

[sweetchick]

My son will be 4 two weeks tomorrow and refuses the use of a toilet.
Got him off nappies while on holiday last year and everything went really well. Caught his pee by accident in his bucket and we emptied the contents in toilet. Done poos while standing up. Done a few more poos still while standing up when back home but after a short time started soiling himself. He wet himself a few times but he s got a great bladder control and really know when needs a pee and goes in toiket himself, while at home and while out. But poos, still driving me mad, get really cross, cannot see the way out. Before used to cross his legs and hide behind the couch, under the bed, behid doors, etc.. now he does it while playing and signs are not visible anymore. Still give him lactulose, but do not want to give it him all the time, hes a fussy eater but whatever he eats its not bad, but it doesnt seem to do any effect on his bowel movements. Had tried sticker charts before, rewards and things like that, but none of that worked. Talked to him about it and now he answers me back that he likes his poo and the smell of it!!!.
Yesterday were at the park and out of the sudden run like mad and hide behind a tree to do one. When I checked it was the size of medium stone. Had to changed him quick at the park as per the playground was extremely busy with kids and feared and accident.
Also got a six month old baby and it gets very difficutl.
Spoke to HV and their answer was he should be responsible for his own mess. Had a talk with a continence adviser but was not help at all. Doctors prescribed more laxative and referal letter to the hospital. Firs, waitiling list for about 18 weeks and now said they cannot help us to see a childrn psychologist.
Do not what else to do, had tried good and bad and nothing worked. Dragged him and sat him on the toilet but the battlefields are endless.
Sat baby after he finishes his morning bottle in potty and he inmediatly does one there, but sitll not reacting. He is even helping to bring potty in for his brother!!
What worries me is the start of school next year. Kids are cruel to each other and would very much wish tha he can sort himself out.
Im feeling so frustrating and fell like a failure for not being able to help my son and for not keep trying
Wonder if someone out there went trought this and has some sort of advice or comment.
Thanks everyone so much for read/listening kinda

how often does he have lactulose?

Must be exasperating. I'd get in touch with InContact - changing their name to the Bladder and Bowel Federation, I think. They are experts and have a helpline where you will be able to talk through the normal range of behaviour for 4yos and how to help your ds, or refer you on. Google the name(s).

Im giving him the lactulose every second, day

Thanks very much edam, I will give it a try

If he is a fussy eater it sounds like more of a control problem then anything else. Some children use tolieting/eating as a way of controling what is happening, they can become very upset when they have to use the toliet because they loose this control. Have you tried explaining to him why we need to go to the toliet and what poo really is, that he's a big boy now and this is what all big boys do? You have said he answers you back and likes the smell, try turning it into a game. Pop a ping pong ball in the loo and see if he can hit it. He gets a point for each time he does. It's similar to a star chart but aeals to a kids sense of grossness.

Don't physically put him onto the toliet, it makes things worse.

my kids were in nappies till 5/6 (although they have autism, so a bit different perhaps). My advice would actually be to not force it. The more of an issue you make it, the more of a problem it will become.

Don't get cross. Don't ever get cross, or drag him to the loo or do anything that makes him feel small. You will end up with a child with a real issue/terror/phobia.

I found that the lactolose helped to soften things up. Take a look at his diet - kids shouldn't have too much wholemeal stuff.

Push for help. It's not acceptable to brush you off like this. It sounds like he has a genuine issue with his bowel movements that you (and he) need support with.

Could you try putting him back in nappies, tell him it's the potty or the nappy, see what he does?

Kids can be cruel yes, but 4/5 year olds are not, generally, that cruel. If he is still wearing a nappy when he goes to school it's not the end of the world. And who knows, maybe seeing all the other children might motivate him.

Finally I disagree 100% with your health visitor about making him 'responsible' for his own mess. I assume that means letting him sit in it, clean himself up etc. I think that is bad advice and likely to make him feel worse.

They won't have him at school if he's in nappies by the way, it's the policy where I live, I'm not sure if it's the same everywhere though.

Your HV sounds crap by the way.

I just want to thank everyone for your comments.
When HV advised me he should be taking rasponsability for his own mess last year at the age of 36 months I was deeply horrified and upset about her comments.
I know that forcing my son to the toilet its not right at all but needs to learn that its the place to do it.
had him sat on it in a few occassions up to 15/20 minutes and a tiny bit came out.
Made a histerical fuss about it and got his little rewards. He had sat blowing bubbles, reading stories, and had sat with the baby while feeding him at several opportunities, but wouldnt make a change.
His diet is limited but consists on cereals with milk, he eats plenty of fruit. So far this morning had three organes cutted in segments wich i read somewhere else, called orange smiles!
Im sorry for being so gross now, but list nite while putting his pjs on and cleaning his bum i saw the poo sitting in its backpassage and its terrify me knowing hes got all that in there.
He oftens complaing about his tummy being sore and told him that its because he is witholding it .
I also know that getting cross doesnt take me anywhere and makes things worse, but how could you remaind calm when your son smells bad everysingle day, changed so many smelly pants, trousers and misses out so much because cannot take him to swimming pool, football, etc

Please, please, please don't fight him. My eldest daughter had this, and I was so unkind to her, trying to make her stop it, thinking she was just being a wilful cow.

In the end, 4 of my 6 DC's had this condition. It started after they'd had their MMR jabs, and I really can't forgive myself for how angry I got with DD1.

Your HV is a bitch and I'm glad she's not my mother is all I can say. This is a child we are talking about. He is not playing mind games with you. He is a little too young to devise that sort of head fark, I would tell your HV.

(Sorry, this is all just my opinion, you don't have to take notice, and clearly it is very close to my heart)

BTW, my eldest DS was in nappies till the week before he went to school. He stopped wearing them because he didn't want to go to school in one, but I always made sure he had wet wipes, spare pants and trousers in his PE bag, and his teacher knew he had a bowel problem, so if he was being awkward about getting changed for PE the teacher kind of guessed why and sent him off on his own to get changed in the loo.

All of my DC's got better as they got older, so please seek some proper help and advice and ignore HV. (She told me my daughter was doing it on purpose as you cannot be 'incontinent of faeces'. She was so wrong).

thanks Constancewearing. HV is a waste of space.
I think from now on I have to accept my sons condition as it is and dealt with it and suppose hell be ready when his time comes.

Does he not yet associate his tummy ache with him keeping it in?

Have you told him this in very basic terms? If he dosn't go to the toliet he will get tummy ache. If he keeps pooing himself he won't be able to go to school? Have you tried taking him to watch other children swim? You could use this as an incentive for him (bribe). If he watches how much fun the other children have he'll want to join in. He can only join in if he's been using the toliet? Get the sticker chart back, this could be a reward at the end of the week.

I've been there, sweetchick, I've been there. Stinking of poo, shitting everywhere - hell, I had it smeared on the fucking WALLS on a regular basis! (and once ds smeared it all over his face!) so it's not like I don't know how you're feeling. I do, I promise I do. But I say again - getting cross is the worst thing you can do. You CAN stay calm if you change your thinking. See it as a problem he has that you need to help him with. Feel sorry for him.

If he holds it, he's likely to be all jammed up, he may need something more than lactalose. Impacted? Compacted? Something. Where it needs to be manually removed. Or perhaps some stronger medicine. Is he drinking enough fluids?

The main thing is, you are being horribly let down by the medical profession. Your son needs, deserves and has the right to some help with this and you have to be a right royal pain in their arses until that happens!

Oh Constance, she was so wrong! cannot believe she said that.
Sometimes this people dish out advices without putting any thoughs or feelings towards our children.
Somebody advice the Incontact website and having a look at it and will contact them.
Its a disgraced we are paying so much tax and been denied help to my son because their waiting list its too long. Have to go private

Oh, and I helped mine to understand the process with a little ditty I made up.

here's the food in your mouth
chew chew chew and swallow
down the pipe
SPLASH! In your tum
round and round and round and round
and out yer bum!

obv with singsong voice, lots of funny faces and movements and stuff!

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but if he's anything like my DC's a sticker chart won't work. My youngest son is 9 and he still has minor troubles now. It's not because he's being willful, as far as I know. He is very very embarrassed about it, but I ignore it and just make sure there are plenty of pants and bottom wipes in the loo. It is either a physical or pyschological problem, but I had no effect on any of mine trying to make them do anything, either for rewards or because of penalties. It just makes them feel really bad that they cannot join in with something, when it's not their fault they can't comply with your request.

I think you need to see GP and get referred to someone immediately. Not because it's a terrible emergency, but you need some support. Other children have this. You're not alone. Please believe me, your son is not a naughty little so and so. It's almost certainly not his fault

Avenalife, my husband and I had talked to and keep talkim to him everysingle day.
When he complains of tummy aches thats what ive told him its because all of his poo inside his tummy. Had also told him he wont be able to go to school next year if he doesnt sit in the toilet. As per now knows he is a big boy and he likes to be call like that, and keep telling him all the big boys and girls sit on the toilet, still not reaction.
Hes so much more under control of the situation.
I have though to get some suppositories prescribed but will create a worse trauma all together.

Well done Hecate, where was your ditty when I needed it?

I know how embarrassing it is, Sweetchick. But once you stop fighting the fact that he doesn't 'go' like everyone else, your life will get so much less stressy. Accept him for what he is, and talk to him about it. And don't let the extended family make him the family model of a 'naughty boy'. He's different, not naughty.

Wishing you both all the best ((()))

Um, if you get him referred Sweetchick, he will be given medicine. My son was on one medicine that made the stool softer, and another than stimulated the bowel to get rid of it all.

Lactulose and syrup of figs, I think. Go to GP, get referred, and get your mind put at rest. Why fight something when you can't win? lol.

Avena, I don't know where you live, but in the UK it's illegal to bar children from school (or anywhere else) if they have bowel problems, under the Disability Discrimination Act.

no more advice other than all the wndeful stuff that has been said, but hope you can get some help soon

I had opposite experience with health visitor as she was v helpful with a similar probelm with DD1. Posted at length about this at time but not sure how to link to it. Essentially DD would only poo in a nappy and in the cupboard. Not sure if this is completely relevent to your situation as she would tell me she wanted a poo but insist on a nappy before she would do one. We were going down the sticker chart route with no sucess and she really seemed afraid when we tried to get her to use the loo (v unlike her). Anyway HV pointed out that for her for whatever reason, pooing on the loo was scary and the leap we were asking her to make ie from cupboard to loo in one go was too much for her. In the end we went through a very very gentle six month process. First we backed off completely to let situation calm down. Then we worked on tiny steps- still in nappy but half out of cupboard, next to cupboard, closer to loo etc etc. Finally got her on loo in nappy. From there got her to bare bum on loo pushing 3 times before nappy was allowed on. Finally at this stage a sligt tummy upset and she ended up going, once this had happened a couple of times we were over the worst. I did then spend a few months talking to the poos in her bottom before she would push them out and a further few months telling the 'poo story' a variation on the 3 bears story which I will spare you. Hopefully this sort of approach might help you, unless bigger physiological issue? SOrry for loooong post. Good luck.

I don't know if this sounds like a naff idea but have you tried a day out [without baby] to take your son to buy some 'special pants' with the character that he really likes on them?
if he does'nt have a medical problem he may be less likely to 'spoil' a pair of pants that he really likes. Could it be an attention thing if you are preoccupied with baby, sometimes the older child will revert back to certain 'younger behaviour.
forgive me if you've already tried

I have a similar problem with my DT1 - he will be 4 in a couple of months. His brother, DT2 was potty trained just before he was 3 but DT1 has always resisted. Finally we managed to get him into pants and doing most of his wees in the loo about 6 weeks ago.

However he wont ask to go to the loo or take himself off, we have to take him and sit him there and then he will do a wee. He will very occasionally poo in the toilet if we ask him to, but most of the time, he does it in his pants and ends up having to be hosed down in the shower (I have the opposite problem - he is really loose).

I sometimes wonder if he just does a trump (sorry if TMI!) and follows through....DH says he used to be like that as a kid.

Doesnt stop it being relentlessly difficult to plan to go anywhere/do anything though...we have had to leave a couple of parties early recently due to the poo running down his legs. Extremely disheartening as he seems to have no idea of why he does it - we have done softly softly and also got angry (becuase try as I might, sometimes I am sorry but I just cant help it - especially when its 2 minutes after I have sat him on the loo). Sticker charts, rewards, treats etc dont work with him.

In summary sweetchick - I know how you are feeling, slightly different scenario but just feels like no end in sight!

My ds used to be afraid of pooing on the toilet as he was scared to "let go". He went fine for a wee. On the advise of my HV we told him that rather than be scared of pooing on the toilet when he wanted to go he asked for a pull up. He used to then go to a quiet place poo, and then we took the pull up off.

We didn't make a big deal of it and it did go on for quite a long time, until one day he just went on his own to the toilet.

I know you have other issues surrounding this but thought i would let you know what worked for us.