DS5 is horrible to my mum

[leopard23]

Will try not to drip feed so might be a bit long… would love any advice here!

My 5yo is horribly behaved around and towards my mum (his granny). She has always been an incredible support and we’re so lucky to have her. She had him from the age of 1 until he was 3, 3 days a week, while we worked. So he’s spent a huge amount of time with her and has always adored her. They had lovely days out together and it was as good as it gets!

His behaviour has got trickier as he gets older - he doesn’t do a thing he’s told. Often defiant, have to ask him multiple times to do something like get dressed. But imo this behaviour is in line with age etc.

However, he’s horrible to my mum. She picks him up from school 3 days a week and between pickup and 5pm when I get home, he’s really abusive. Hitting, pushing, spitting, swearing?! I don’t know where he gets it as he’s not like this with us.

we have a 2yo DD also who my mum obviously loves, and I often wonder whether he feels jealous. My mum’s not as considerate as we are with language and will often say things like “DD wouldn’t treat granny like this” etc.

anyway… I don’t know what to do. I try to talk to him and it goes in one ear and out the other, happens again the next day. I’ve said if it continues he’ll go to after school club, explained how lucky he is to have his granny picking him up. My mum’s is genuinely lovely to them and I can’t figure out why he’s acting like this. Help!

I think this is probably it. She is maybe trying to impose stricter boundaries than you do. I don't agree that the behaviour you describe at home is in line with his age

Next week leave work early and pick him up every day. Let nanny get DD.

He comes home to no interaction and has to play alone, ignore, ignore, ignore. No TV, no playing with him, nothing. Make sure he's fed and that's it. Be "working" elsewhere.

When DD gets home praise praise her for being good for nanny and what a fun time she's had by being nice to nanny.

See what happens the week after.

What consequences is your mum allowed to put in place when he behaves like that? Or does she have to wait for you to come and have your “telling off” and toys taken away(which doesn’t seem as if it is consistent)?

You pick him up and tell him “you do not behave like that with anyone! This is not acceptable “. Then you take away something he actually cares about. You tell him to apologise/write an apology letter. You tell him if he does it again , x will happen (he misses a treat, club, party whatever) and then you stick to it. Screw natural consequences, especially when the one you’re considering isn’t even realistic because you can’t actually get a place to after school club.

First of all, where is your 5 year old learning swear words?

Is your mum up for imposing some strict discipline or is she soft with him? If I were you, I'd be telling your mum to remove him to his room if he's misbehaving and leave him there until he's ready to apologise and behave. He needs some tough love I'm afraid. Yes children are tired, hungry and often a bit grumpy after school, especially in Reception but your son's behaviour is outside the normal realm of that. He needs to be taught that this behaviour is unacceptable and the consequence has to be immediate and firm. Removing him and telling him that if he behaves like that, he's not welcome in the lounge/kitchen/playroom, should do the trick if your mum is able to be firm and consistent.

If you think your mum is going to struggle with this, then I think you need to rethink your working hours. I understand you've got to work but First and foremost, it's your responsibility to sort out your son's behaviour.

Is saving money important to you? If not, please stop the abuse that your mother is enduring (and it is abuse, not just typical 5 year old behaviour by any stretch of the imagination) by putting him in to a club (and hoping he regains from behaving like this)

Saving money is the point otherwise she would give up work to deal with his problems. Otherwise it is just working full time to avoid the abuse and outsourcing it.

Could he be neurodivergent?
To me it sounds like meltdowns, which are very common with ND kids after trying to mask at school all day.
Also, he's competing for attention with his sister too...and Granny using manipulative langauge like "DD wouldn't treat Granny like this" is likely to be angering him too.
Kids don't get care how they get attention/a reaction...attention is attention.

I'd also be very wary of using the threat of after-school care as a punishment. It might actually be good for him...a transition from the formality and expecations during the school day, to being more relaxed and able to play and have a snack with friends.
It might be that he then calms down a bit and is less pent up.

Is he the same on the days you collect him?

Oh and with regard to the hitting, pushing, spitting etc...behaviour is communication/a language in itself.
But I can guarantee it's been picked up from another child.
The reality is that not all kids come from a nice homelife...some kids will witness parents displaying this kind of behaviour and think it's acceptable.
So I'd also speak to the school too, see if there are any other concerns. Because it might be that little Jonny is in an abusive environment and it only becoems apparent through his interactions with your Son and other kids, during playtime etc.

“I would ensure he cried” Christ 😬

This was my first thought too.

If his behaviour is really only with one person, then your first step is to stop that situation happening.

Are you the Op? Nope

At 5 I would expect your child to be more compliant with you than you describe. Never doing as he is told and reacting badly when being told no is more toddler behaviour than 5 year old behaviour. I wouldn’t expect him to be perfectly behaved and doing everything he is told and never minding being told no, but I wouldn’t expect this to be his normal behaviour. Obviously his behaviour with your mum is on another level. Where does the swearing come from?

As others have said he may be masking at school

Why aren’t you worried about him shouting when he is asked to do something or told he can’t have/do something?

Does he treat her like that when she sees him out with after school pick up? How is he the other 2 days being picked up from school? Is it definitely a Granny issue rather than an after school issue? How is he at school?

As others have said, your Mum shouldn't be expected to cope with that. Is there not more than one after school club? If he behaved like that there though he would be kicked out I am sure. Is there no way of you or your husband adjusting hours to be there? It seems like a parent is required in this situation.

A lot of children really like after school club. There are opportunities to run around with other kids and play with them. Does your son actually like going home with your mother. You say she favours your daughter. He is fine at school. I suspect he doesn’t enjoy spending time with your Mum and after school club may be a better fit for him. I suspect if it was your MIL that looked after him posters might believe that he had a right to express his opinions and unhappiness but because it is your mother you put her feelings above his. If all the other care providers are giving positive reports and it is just your mother that he is unhappy with, it could be your mother that is the problem.

What is he doing with his gran after school? Activities to burn off all the energy stored up from a day of lots of sitting at school? Or sitting in front of the Tv?

Either way - your son needs to be apart from your mother if he continues to abuse her in this way

Make sure Granny meets him at the school gate with an apple and piece of zucchini cake and a glass of milk - a decent snack. Young school children are very hungry after school.
Then I would remind DS that Granny will only ask once for DS to do something reasonable and that if he misbehaves she is to call you straight away.

Give Granny power to call you.

You drive home and remove DS straight home to do a list of chores. Tidy his room, sweep the bathroom floor, clean the basin and put his best toy on the fridge.
Once what Granny says has power, she can say that she will call you if he does not immediately say sorry for hitting her and he will know she means business.

It doesn't matter if he is well behaved at school. He needs to treat his family kindly.

I am very impressed by the after school clubs that I have seen at our local schools. They are firm but fair. Can you really trust your mother to give him a positive experience when he is clearly showing his unhappiness? I am so sure that if it was any care provider apart from your mother and your son was showing this kind of behaviour, you would move him. A poster writing recently about her mother ruining her son’s significant birthday and worrying that the activity might not have been a good choice for her mother, made me think that some mothers are keener to please their own mothers than their children. If you spoke to your son’s school, what would they say? Almostly certainly that you move your son. I think he is acting up because he is very unhappy with her.

You’re very dismissive of him not doing what he’s asked by saying ‘typical of his age’. I wonder if you’re letting more go than you realise, granny isn’t and he’s reacting to that.
There’s an unwritten rule for us that you are extra kind to your grandparents. If my children had done what he’d done at age 5 we wouldn’t be talking and taking a toy off him we’d make sure he never wanted to do it again! Think a telling off, taking your Daughter out for a treat he’d love whilst he stays in with the other parent no tv or screen, no attention and certain toys taken off him. He’d then be writing an apology letter or if he’s reception making a card.

You shouldn’t have to be telling him multiple times, yes it can be typical of that age but it needs working on.Look at the language you’re using ‘sweet’, ‘kind’, ‘angel’ when actually he’s vile to his grandmother so he can turn it on and off when he wants to.

There was that terrible case recently of a grandmother killing her grandson by punishing him severely, all done with the mother’s approval of course. I am sure your mother is not like that in anyway but your son is unhappy . Listen to him
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/videos/c5ypr156wyqo

This is brilliant advice. Especially about the lack of chat at pick up
and the report from granny and then altering how you behave with him if he’s been horrible to her.

@CopeNorthpoor child being made to cry, never mind poor older lady being hurt. Children need to be upset sometimes.

Give him a positive experience when he's "clearly showing his unhappiness"???

Reward him for spitting, swearing at and hitting his grandmother? He neither deserves nor needs a positive reaction for this!

He behaves badly at home too. Maybe granny says no more than mum and expects DS to do as he is told

is he in reception or year 1? I would speak to school about behaviour and ask for the senco to
observe him. See if anything is happening at school. How is he when you pick up in the other days? How is he if granny looks after him at other times ? How is it different at granny’s to at home? Behaviour is communication you need to try to get to the root cause of it. It could be that anouther childcare might be a better solution, you say the after school club is over subscribed, are there any local childminders or nursery’s that pick up from your school?