I need to talk but have no one so just getting it down here. Feel free to ignore.

[itati]

I have had a lot of problems in my life and have really struggled with being a parent. The last 2 weeks have been particulary hard. This morning I decided we would ignore all the bad behaviour completely and we also decided we would go out for a walk together. Nice walk, nice weather, nice time, hopefully.

It is now the end of the day and the kids are in bed.
DS2 (age 3) has a swollen and red cheek and cut eye thanks to his brother (age 7) pushing him.
DS1 has been on the step and sent to his room.
DD (age 4) has been sent to her room but has been the better behaved out of all of them.
DS2 has been sent to the step and is currently crying in bed as he can't have the pyjamas he wants - they are dirty.
DS1 has back chatted me every single time I have spoken to him, has been rough with his siblings and cheeked his father. He has also watched as the little ones squirted sun cream on the carpet and didn't tell us.
All I get is kids will be kids, all fight with their siblings and all backchat. But all the time? No exaggeration.

DH and I are at a loss at what to do, have no one to help, no time alone and I feel sad that maybe I am one of those people who should not have had children.

I used to be such a fun person, good company, a laugh. Now all I do is dread the next day when I go to bed and wish the time away to them going to bed.

I think I'd also book an appt with the gp as you sound very down. Things can look a whole lot worse if you feel worn down yourself. Your children might be picking up on your mood which won't help the situation and has the possibility to go into a downward spiral.

I too can recommend the 'how to talk' book. It really helps you to understand their behaviour and how our reactions can affect it. Agree with juuule about how down you sound, as someone who's on ad's, but still gets bad spells, it's almost impossible to deal calmly with difficult behaviour in kids if you feel awful, and I've only got the one!

I have emailed parentline, thank you.
They take 3 working days to reply to I will wait.

OSOTC - I expect so.

The GP won't help regarding the children, I am on ADs, and the HV isn't bothered as the kids are at school.

Hi Itati, I don't think you are not expecting too much at all. We all want our kids to be respectful, as much as for themselves as for us. We want them to be pleasant and be able to play together without killing each other. Unfortunately, this doesn't always come naturally (and the little blighters really manage to pick up on when we have zero energy left), and they often need help in cooperating with each other when they are in bad moods, and how to deal with conflict effectively and how to deal with other peoples needs. They learn quickest through practical demonstration and if you are so knackered and worn down by them, you may not be able to give them this at this point. Are you able to get a break somehow to take stock and recharge youur energies? Can your DH have them over a weekend or something while you go and stay with a (childless!) friend?

Is there maybe one of your friends whose parenting you really respect? If I am having tough times with my kids I usually go and visit my friend who deals really well with lack of cooperation and cheekiness. It really helps me get back on the straight and narrow in the respect that I can see what strategies work for her in getting them to cooperate. For the record, she doesn't punish or reward, but by talking and listening she manages to get them all behaving in a (vagely) acceptable manner. I find trying to take control gets me no control whatsoever. Working together with my kids to reach acceptable(ish) behaviour has a better outcome, but takes a lot more energy. Hence, you might need a break.

It is so emotionally draining when they argue constantly, mine go through patches of this. And it is so, so hard to see the positives in them when they are being complete little buggers. But you are their mummy and love them more than anyone in this world so I'm sure you will find a way to get through this challenging young age. Could you do a chart or something where you mark up something funny/wonderful they all do each day (even if its something simple such as 'DS1 put on his own t-shirt', 'DS2 thanked me for his lunch, etc'), it might help you all start focussing more on the positives rather than being dragged down by the difficult bits.

Just a thought. Thinking of you, being a mum isn't easy, is it? x

Oh you poor thing - it sounds like you are at the end of your tether.

My DS1 (8 next month) back chats sometimes and I have no real advice for you but it seems to me that he is the one you have to tackle.

DS2 is 4 (nearly 5)and it seems to me that his back chatting and rudeness is usually the result of copying DS1. It just struck me that it sounds like a similar situation with you - the little ones copying their big brother.

As I say, DS1 back chats but as somebody else said, a raised eyebrow and a severe tone, not shouty, is usually enough to make him back down and give a (sometimes grudging) apology.

Pick your battles. Decide the absolute minimum you expect from them and what you will tolerate and let the rest slide for a while. Work on one thing at a time. Get DH to be consistent with you, so that you aren't both on at them for different things.

Distraction may work for the younger ones, and then tell them they will lose something they love for the day and stick to it so they know you mean business.

Don't forget to reward the good behaviour when you can, no matter how tiny a thing it is. I am bad at doing that but when I remember it does make a difference.

I am making this up as I go along a bit but I think we all get a bit like this sometimes.

I meant your DS1 is the one you have to tackle not mine!

I just feel so sad when I see the cut on his eye lid and the bruise on DS2's cheek, courtesy of DS1 pushing him off the sofa. What do they have to do to each other before we can get some help?

I like the idea of one thing at a time. What would you suggest?

Guess you would have to choose what winds you up the most, or you find the least acceptable behaviour. Purposefully hurting each other maybe?

Am sneakily looking from work so can't really contribute right now. Just wondering if you want to remain anon or not?

Not sure really, OSOTC. Feel like I wish I could just disappear completely tbh.

itati - is there anyone that you can talk to? Not just email or on here. I really think you need someone to talk things through with. Why not phone parentline and see if you can speak to someone now rather than waiting 3 days.

Could you contact your local homestart and see if they have any suggestions.

Yes, if you are who I think you are, you certainly sound a lot more desperate than in the past.

I am not sure where I would start - probably with the back chatting. If they have some respect for you and listen to what you are saying you will be better able to control them in all situations iyswim.

My BIL and his wife had terrible troubles with their DS1 when he was 8. He was so rude to his mother and wouldn't listen to a thing she said and he was picking on his brother too. It turns out that he was mixing with different boys at school and was copying them.

The turning point came one day whe BIL told DN not to talk to his wife that way. Turning it round so that the child was actually taking on and offending his father who had claimed ownership, for want of a better word, of the mother rather than letting DN think his mother was there just for him seemed to work. Does that make sense? Anyway, he calmed down a bit after that because he knew his parents were a united front and they were able to talk to him properly and get to the bottom of the friends thing.

Whether it would work for you depends on whether your DS has any more respect for your DH than you think he does for you.

How does DS1 get on at school? Do the teachers have the same trouble with him?

Agree Parentline is a good place to start.

You sound like you need some time away from everything - can you just go out for the day by yourself and do something you enjoy but can't do with the children around? Let DH cope for one day alone? You sound like you need some breathing space.

Home start said they couldn't help.

Not sure if I could talk to anyone.

I have all good intentions but then they hit each other or cheek me and it all goes wrong.

OSOTC I am a lot more desperate. I just do not know how to bring up my kids and my bloody foot hurts where I dropped a pan on it this morning and I just want to go to bed.

What happens to you when they cheek you? Do you get angry at them? Or just feel useless inside?

When I am not coping well, I get cross 'Do not speak to me like that?' and DS sometimes laughts AT me.

When I am coping I will say repeat what they have said to me exaggerating the bad tone of voice and then show him how I'd prefer to be spoken to. It makes him laugh with me. But he is 5 so this may not work on your older DS.

Yeah, I see what you mean, sounds like you really are going through a bad phase. And it's not necessarily anything you're doing wrong either. Families do go through bad patches.

If it's any consolation I think your ds's age is a very common one for little boys to act up and talk back. Might be something to do with hormones + wanting to be grown up and independent and not being able to handle it. Plus they are copying other little 7yos who are going through the same stage. In fact, I think Dr Spock mentions it in the old tattedered 1960's paperback I've got somewhere, so it's nothing new. And I will admit that my ds, who is a reasonably amenable character, got a lot stroppier when he turned 7.

Agree with Juules that you might want your own health looked at too. Perhaps not likely to be the main cause of the problem, but if you are getting visibly run down that is likely to make the children nervous and make them behave worse, so it can turn into a vicious circle. (have a friend who is seriously ill and that family has had quite a few behavioural issues since it happened)

When they cheek me I shout, I glare, I tell them off, I try and walk away sometimes. They hold my gaze and I make sure they look away first, petty I am sure but I have no control over my kids and I seriously worry they will be the ASBO kids of the future. And my foot really hurts now.

HI Itati - I haven't read whole thread so sorry if its moved on. Just wanted to share one parenting insight that's helped me a lot when dealing with challenging childrne. first I wnat to say that I spend too much time screaming and then regretting it - hurtin their little feelings and then feeling terrible that i couldn't find a bigger and better way to convey my message other than hurting them.

Having said that ............my dd aged 7 can be very very very trying - and I mean all those verys. For e.g.as soon as bath time starts she starts screaming for a towel saying her eyes hurt and then when i brush her hair to get knots out she bucks her whole body and screams and fights and kicks. I used to get incensed by this and would scream back and sometimes even smack her . She just used to press all my buttons so expertly at a time when I'm tired too ( bathtime) and most likely am dealing with her 2 younger siblings who also despite being very tired manage to cope fine with baths/hairwashing or at least cry a little rather than having a screaming tantrum like dd.

I found my relatoins with her very bad and that i began to dislike her.

so i started on a positive thinking campaign and would force myself to think nice things about her. so for e.g. I would look at her ( when not screaming ) and think "you are very sweet and pretty" ( which she is when not screaming) and I would also tell her that I loved her a lot and name her good qualities to her. When she has screaming fits now I ignore it and get on with the job in hand - be it hair brushing or whatever. AFter the job in hand is over ( wiht no recriminations or shouting) I offer my hugs and stroke and soothe her. She always accepts it.I am now working on trying to comfort her durin ghte tantrum which is very hard as this is when my internal anger is the strongest and I can't speak at this point to her as I'm scared I'll lose my temper and all my hard work will be undone.

So - for you - what about trying the positive thinking approach? It works on teh basis that whatever we internalise becomes who we are. So if you think your dcs are sweet well behaved kids ( and they must be for that 10 mins ) then think they are and tell them. Create that positive vibe that you love and believe in them. Keep doing it at appropriate times and it will slowly erode your feelings of helplessness and that there are no good times as you will be regularly speaking of them with affection and warmth creating a different climate both in your heart and your home.

Good luck ( and fwiw - I think its normal fo rkids to behave like this and normnal for you to feel this way!)

DS2 has just got up and all I want to do is cry

I do appreciate all the help btw.

I know I must have done this wrong but how

DS2 hits DD
I send him to step. Doesn't want to go.
DD says something mean to DS2 so I send her to step.
DD tips out the jigsaws she was putting away.
Both on step, hitting each other and calling names.
DS2 cries
DS2 with me telling tales that DD hit him and refusing to go back to step.
Kids dinner burning, (I know how I did that wrong. )

Okay, the naughty step is not working. Time to try something else. If they start kicking off, can you just stand up and shout 'right, that's it, you've got 20 seconds to hide, if I find you, the tickling monster is going to get you'. Hence, they get caught up with playing hide and seak rather than winding each other up. Can you put some of your favourite music on and dance like a loon until they join in? Or play hide the thimble with smarties (favourite in our house). Or find a game where they need to cooperate with each other. Can they take it in turns to mime something that the others have to guess, or play follow my leader or something.

They need to learn to cooperate with each other, sitting on a step aint gonna teach them that. Sorry, does that sound harsh? I don't mean it to. They are getting in a cycle of getting on each others nerves and need help in snapping out of it.

Ds2 just bit DS1.

Have sent DS2 to sit the other side of the table.

Laugh or cry?

DS1 - I have to eat my dinner with my fingers. (I was feeding the cat)
Me - I put 3 spoons on the table.
DS1 - well you obviously didn't count.
Me - I beg your pardon?.....

Like TeeBee says, the naughty step is not working. You need something to diffuse the situation or distract them or work on helping them resolve their fighting unaided.

Also, how come you can post while they are eating their meal? It's inevitable they will play up a bit if you are more interested in the computer.
It's hard meal after meal but you have to try and keep up the chat so they learn to have civilised chats at mealtimes.