Four-year-old telling fibs or has something serious happening at school?

[BigBubblesX]

I'm looking for some support and advice. My daughter has just turned 4 and has started telling some fibs. I'm not sure what to do, I've always told her about being honest with us even if it's hard so I'm not sure where this has come from. It's usually been little things like her sister did something and not her so I wasn't entirely sure if it was a lie or not, but I caught her out in one today so I've doubted a few things she has said in the last few weeks now.

There is a boy in her class that she has said for months has been punching her and spitting in her face,l etc, which I raised with teachers and they said they would deal with it, such as keeping them away from each other. Then a few weeks after she said he had grabbed her by the throat, dragged her into the tent and punched her in the stomach. This was probably around 3 months ago. I had a meeting with her teachers about it, and I know he has been a problem with some other children as well, and the teachers seem aware of his behaviour so I believe he did these things to her, plus she was very upset about it all and nervous about going back into school. I did also mention to the teachers that I was worried about this boys behaviour and what was happening to him as they pick behaviour up from somewhere, but was just met with 'he has 2 older brothers'. I have older siblings and we never acted like this at this age, and my husband is the oldest of 3 boys and said he never acted like this with his brothers.

So the last 2 weeks have been where the lying has started, and we've also had a new book about boundaries which we've read a few times. I've mentioned to her about asking before hugs and kisses (she is a cuddler so loves to hug her friends) and that we should never ask to see others private parts or touch them, as no one should be asking or touching her. I've found this quite important as my husband and I have come from backgrounds of being abused so I want her to know what isn't acceptable and that she needs to tell us right away if anything happens.

Today she has blurted out that the boy that has been hurting her, has been putting his hands down her knickers and touching her bum and I don't know what to do. I don't want her to think I won't believe her but I don't know where this has come from and my husband thinks this as be a fib as 4 year olds are known for started to tell lies. I have asked if she told the teacher and she said she has, but nothing has been mentioned to me about it so I'm not sure she has or if she has, she hasn't explained what happened? She can get quite nervous telling the teachers of anything has happened but they said she is improving with this.

Has anyone been through something like this? What should I do?

I don't want her to think I don't believe her and that she can't talk to me and I've stressed that making something like this up is very serious and she says it happened. I don't know whether to talk to her about it again in a day or 2 and see if the story is the same?

She has been so wound up today and had some really bad behaviour today (standard toddler/child stuff) so I don't know what to think. She is a good girl, and so sweet so this is all out of character and has upset me as I thought I would be better at all of this. When she first said this I struggled to hold back my tears as I don't want her experiencing behaviour like this.

Sorry for rambling, I'm just so worried about all of this. In one hand I'm worried this is a fiction and how to approach it, and on the other I'm terrified this has happening to my baby.

It could easily be true, don’t assume it’s a lie. Presumably the school will know how to talk to her about it to avoid leading her to say certain things.

@BigBubblesX You have to report it to the school. It’s a safeguarding issue. Pupil on pupil is safeguarding. It’s obviously difficult to know if it’s true or not or whether another child has suggested this to her and she’s run with it. However it’s clearly an issue to be reported, so you must. Look up your schools safeguarding policy and get in touch with the safeguarding lead tomorrow. It’s important that you do this.

Definitely speak to the teacher. I wouldn’t accuse the other child and I would approach with caution saying you’re unsure how accurate this is but your daughter has said... Has she told any other fibs apart from blaming her sister for something?

it’s not something to ignore 100% not, but, has she made this up going off the conversation you have had with her about private parts?

I found it easier to say to teachers "X says this happened, but I know that children aren't always reliable in what they say or may have misunderstood the situation".

That way you do address the issue, whilst acknowledging that you don't know what happened.

To be fair to my DDs, they didn't fib, but sometimes only told me half the story, omitting the bit where they completely wound someone up.

So you left your child in an environment where she was punched and spat on by another kid for ''months'' while the school failed to deal with it?

And now you are doubting her for complaining about potential sexual abuse?

Frankly OP you need to stop wasting time and take some action and raise an official complaint with the Head/whoever is in charge of safeguarding at that school.

You should have kicked up a fuss from the very beginning and not allowed your daughter to remain at that school if they were so inefficient at dealing with the boy who is causing all these problems.

You need to tell school.

whether it is true or not because they need to know about it either way.

four year olds do not always say things that are aligned with reality for a whole number of reasons - they can be playing pretend and haven’t said (like when mine informed his teacher he’d had rum for breakfast and made the cat walk to plank), they can have misunderstood something that actually did happen etc.

you need to tell school and they can investigate.

I’d take her seriously. If it turns out there’s nothing in it you can work with her about truthfulness but she will also get a clear message that you listen to her and will always deal with things. If there is something in it you’ll never forgive yourself for not listening to her.

She may very well be telling the truth, what she describes isn’t unheard of. She may also be trying to tell you there really is a problem with this boy being aggressive to her, or she may be very scared of him after her previous experience and is trying to tell you it’s a problem. Whatever the situation is I’d not be returning her to the setting until I was absolutely sure there’s a clear, consistent safety plan in place.

Thanks all. I'm going to look at the safe guarding stuff on the school website now. They're on half term at the moment, so I don't think anyone will be in tomorrow but I will definitely be im touch Monday morning. I think my husband just wants to leave it but I'm not happy to, in case there is some truth in it.

I also didn't leave her getting hit and spat at for months, it was raised as soon as she told me and the school said they would deal with it, such as keeping them separate. However, it came to light yesterday when speaking to another 2 mums that he was also being separated from their children so I think they had been mixed together again and led to further instances. She does like playing with him sometimes and he can be nice, so I don't know if this is why the school relaxed their separation a bit? But I think we need a plan in place now as I can't her this happening to her. I just wish she mentioned jt sooner so we could have dealt with it then for her.

I already feel like a massive failure of a mum, and I don't want to fail her like I was failed by my family

Way to blame OP. Hope you feel good about yourself.

Where are you that your just turned 4 year old is in school ? Or do you mean a school nursery?

@Decacaffeinatednow She is in school nursery, so has been there since September

You report it to the teacher. Its important for your daughter but also the boy. If he's touching inappropriately that is a safeguarding concern for everyone including him.

I’m struggling to understand what makes you think she is lying? The nature of the allegations? Because your husband says 4yr olds lie?

It wasn't to do with the nature of the allegations, I don't know how to explain it. I think it's because she has been lying the last 2 weeks that made me more cautious, and the fact she hasn't been in school because of half term so I wondered where this came from. But I'm also aware that things like this can be bottled away (as I didn't tell anyone for 4 years when I was abused), so I don't know if she just felt like telling me now. She told a fib about her best friend last week, something like a scratch mark on her neck from where she had been scratching but she said her friend just did it. It was a Saturday and she hadn't seen her at all, and I had watched her scratch her neck. I do think that maybe there was an issue with them the week before or that she knew she would get some attention from me? My youngest hasn't been well the last week so she's obviously required a lot more attention (she's 2 and bf for comfort a lot) so I do feel bad my 4 yo hasn't been able to have as much of my time but there isn't much I can do about it while illness is about.
I have just spoken to my husband more about it, as the girls are in bed, and it's not that he doesn't believe her but he is concerned if I just report without evidence then they will palm us off. He wants me to speak to the other parents and see who else has experienced issues (as I believe this child has caused a lot of problems for others) so we can go in as a group and be noticed instead of fobbed off. I've just never been in this situation as a parent before so just looking for some advice on how I can get this resolved the right way and have my daughter safe in school.

Do not speak to the other parents. Bring it up with school. I can’t say if she’s telling the truth or not but asking other parents is def not the right way to go.

@BigBubblesX This allegation happened at school. You speak to the safeguarding lead. Not the class teacher and not another parent! Teachers are trained to speak to dc and elicit info. The safeguarding lead will know what to do. Hand over to them . If it’s not truthful, they make the judgement and will talk to the other child. Leave it up to trained professionals.

Yes, speak to the safeguarding lead on Monday and report what your child has said.
It is a duty to do this if a child has made a disclosure. The fact she lies sometimes is irrelevant here. The school still need to investigate.

If you are doubtful, think about how you would feel if this was true and you didn't report it.

My dd is 4 and starting reception in sept.

Personally...

I would

1. report via email to the school teacher, head teacher and safe guarding lead in writing and request a f2f meeting which i would would and advise you are recording. I would keep all correspondence about it on email and in writing.
2. be keeping my dd off school (using unpaide parental leave if needed) until there was a clear safe guarding policy and plan I was happy with it place.
3. be ringing round all other schools locally to enquire about a transfer and looking to move her.

For months has been punching her and spitting in her face,

This is horrifying. On this alone I'd be looking to remove her.

This shouldn't ever happen and if it does happen never more than once

Would or your husband want to be punched and spat at for months...????
Would it effect you?

How are you and your husband not up in arms over this alone. Let alone possible sexual abuse i do. Not. Know.

She is 4. Protect and advocate for your child.

I am actually shocked at how blasé the pair of you are about this.

Make it clear to her the consequences for lying.

My son went through a phase of making things up about other children at school. I realized it was because all he was getting when other boys did something wrong was positive emotion from us. And for a 4-5 year old, his brain clicked and he realized "if I tell them another boy did something bad to me or the teacher, I get more love/effection/praise etc".

So I made it clear to him what the consequences were, and what needed to happen. If he tells me something serious, it has to be reported to the teacher, and it has to be discussed with the other student etc.

Obviously, know it wasn't true, he didn't want this, and the fibbing quickly stopped.

But it can be hard because kids often fully believe something, even if it didn't actually happen in the way they understood it, so it depends if they know they are making it up or not.

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That all being said, the difference between my case and yours is it was very obviously a fib in mine because the accusations were sometimes so story-like and silly that they were more fiction than reality. Whereas yours seems very plausible. Which makes me think you should believe your daughter first, then consider fibs after.

My concern here is for the child and as the parent the OP is the one who has to act and quickly.

If you see this as 'blame' then that is your choice.

Thank you for explaining, makes sense you have a doubt with the recent fib, but also you say you believe other things she has said about this boy so there is definitely reason to follow this up and have it looked into.

Having worked in this area, I agree with the pp who said definitely do not speak to other parents. Don’t speak any more to dd about it either, or do any teaching about lying just now. If she says any more, write down what she said. Write an email to the school now with all that she has said, so far. Just be factual ‘on x date she said xyz’. Tbh if this were my child and I thought it might be true, I’d contact social services now and not wait for Monday.

Tell your DH that this is not about evidence. I understand that you both have had abuse histories, which will cloud how you see this. Abuse is rarely evidenced because it happens one to one. Even if it is not true, the school will want you to report this. There’s nothing wrong with telling them.

You have to see where things go as they look into this, but I’d certainly be saying I don’t want her to be sat at a table with this boy ever again and expect the school to explain how they will keep her safe.

Take her seriously.

i don’t understand - other than wishing it were not true - why you are mentioning fibbing as a likely outcome rather than going Tiger Mum on her behalf.

Your husbands response is weird, especially given that he has experienced abuse himself.

@SalmonOnFinnCrisp The op should involve as few people as possible at the school. The scattergun approach is not acceptable. She could inform SS but it’s now not really her role to work if this is lying. It’s for trained employees. So the safeguarding lead at school and SS safeguarding team. Often heads are safeguarding leads anyway. The class teacher is unnecessary. The head or safeguarding lead will ask for evidence from the class teacher. The head will also act to consider class arrangements.

Schools are very good at questioning and so are SS. The DD doesn’t need to be questioned about lying right now. However if abuse is talked about in the house, has DD knowledge of what abuse looks like? At 5, my DDs would not have known. So what has op and dh discussed with dd given their backgrounds. Dh seems to have an off attitude.