Eldest was bullying his younger brother at holiday club, how should I handle it?

[Trailblaze]

I’m v upset so please be gentle.

I picked them both up from holiday club today and my 5 year old son was very sad and said it was his worst day ever as his brother had been mean to him all day. Turns out my 8 year old son had been throwing frisbees at him and encouraging his friends to do it too. Playing tig and making my youngest “it” constantly. Goading my youngest to punch and kick them.

I’m sure it’s because my eldest is trying to impress his friend who he’s not seen for over a year who was at holiday club. He has a mean streak as well. He won’t say why he did it and just shrugs. I sent him to his room and have taken away all screen time. I’ve explained what he’s done was bullying and it’s cruel.

How can he bully his younger brother who is so kind to him and they okay so nice at home? Should I try and get help and if so where from?

I would find out why the club leaders let that happen first, if indeed they did.

Yes, am very surprised they didn’t say anything to you at this level of reported violence!
do you usually punish your eldest on his brothers say so?

I message the club leader who said he hadn’t noticed but would keep an eye out tomorrow. My youngest said he told one of the leaders but then my eldest ran off to hide in the toilets so he didn’t get told off. Seems then it was forgotten about.

I’m more just worried about how he can be so cruel to his little brother.

Punishing him directly is likely going to be ineffective and make it worse as he will resent his brother.

They should be "a team" (this is something you can foster / work on separately)

i think you need a hesrt to heart.
dont lose your temper even if oldest is being a little shit...

You need to work out why your oldest has done this?

is it because he has such low self esteem he feels he needs to do this (because thats likely the driver - he wants the other kids to like him)
Is it in group / out group mentality...?

Separately you need explain his brother is going to be with him for life. I talk to my childrena lot about things like long term strategies (share with your db now because then alter hell share with you... if you let him have some popcorn he will share his chocolate etc) and also reciprocal altruism.
Mutual cooperation and team work gives them an advantage.

You only have your youngest son’s word for it. Do you believe him?
Id be more cross with the club leaders for letting it happen tbh. Where were they that they didn’t notice? It’s their job to notice these things.

Thanks advice re being a team. They play nice together all the time. They are always off playing at some game they make up that’s why it’s so shocking that he can just ditch him like this.

It did happen as my eldest admitted it.

So bullying, violence, name calling, and the adults in charge saw nothing?!
that’s a huge safeguarding referral I’d think… what else have they not noticed?..,,
although it does sound you’re coming down heavy on angel youngest/ horribly mean and cruel older without any evidence.
wonder if older son knows you’re absolutely only going to see your younger sons view?

Thanks for this. I know I feel we’ve just pushed him into a corner and he’ll hate us all now. I tried at bedtime talking to him but he doesn’t want to talk about why he did it. He’s never been one to talk about feelings despite how much I have tried. I fear for his future when I don’t know what’s going on inside his head.

I have a scorched earth policy when it comes to bullying.
The bully loses holiday club for the rest of the holiday.

In which case I think you need to send your husband into bat with a "let me.tell about a time when I was 9.... I did x and I didnt mean it and I eas embarassed and FEELINGS and then...I did x

And it needs to be your husband not you....

Its a good teaching moment for him.to learn about amends.

Get.your dh to Take him to the toy shop and let him pick a toy his little brother would like they can play.togehter or better mum and dad vs kids....

Well look at the names you’re calling him at 8 years old on here? Surely he knows how you see him compared to his brother|
How can he bully his younger brother who is so kind to him
He has a mean streak as well.

had a friend at school in similar dynamic, little sister was a poor wee perfect lamb and big sister was just awful to the delicate soul… she ended up realising her parents would always side with the younger sister so would admit to anything to end the punishments/ grounding. unsurprisingly she’s now nc, and the golden child is nowhere near that the parents are needing support.

I tried this with him after I found he’d wet the bed but not told me. I said how when I was younger sometimes I wet the bed and I was so embarrassed about it etc and he said “why are you giving me this information mummy?” 😂.

I’ve just been up to see him and cuddled him and said sorry for shouting and told him how bullying makes me cry as it happened to me when I was younger. Not sure if it got through to him or not. I said he must never ever bully his brother and he said “what if I’m mean to someone else then, is that ok?”. I think he lacks empathy for how people feel.

Thanks for the advice. I do praise him as much as I can and I’m very aware of him not feeling second fiddle to my youngest. It’s just with this bullying and his lack of empathy, it worries me.

I tried this with him after I found he’d wet the bed but not told me. I said how when I was younger sometimes I wet the bed and I was so embarrassed about it
so you didn’t say it wasn’t a huge bad thing? You told him you were embarrassed when you did it, so the correct thing is to be embarrassed?
why do you already think you need to stop him feeling 2nd fiddle to his brother? Is he?

Oh dear you seem to be one of these posters who just want to be all judgy. I’ll pass on any further comments now.

And you’re one who wants to be told “yes you’re doing everything right, your oldest is a bully with no empathy”?

This is what worked for us and I’m very proud of the relationship between my three sons who are now young men and their younger sister. They are each very different, are not best buddies and often don’t see each other much these days, but they genuinely care about each other and you can see a kind joking rapport when we’re all together. Don’t push feelings of shame underground by removing things and then ignoring, rather talk about it, after all the goal is building better relationships not building resentment

I do try to get him to see the value of sharing. My youngest will give his last chocolate to my eldest but my eldest hasn’t yet learned to reciprocate that which is frustrating for us to see my youngest gave him his cheeseburger because my eldests chicken burger had mayo on it he’s so very kind to him but my eldest still will not share unless under duress.

Maybe he was bullying him when the leader has his back turned. He might have done it really subtly so as not to get caught . My sister used to do this to me but she was golden child so to the pp who said you can't always believe the younger one, actually you can - especially if older one has admitted it. I was nothing but an inconvenience to her and it was miserable being o the receiving end so l would do what you can to nip it in the bud op. Sorry you are going through this

I only have one DC so no advice from experience, but I know how I'd feel if he was bullying or being bullied, so to feel both those things at once must be so difficult!
Initial thinking it was showing off in front of the other boys his age, and that acting unbothered this evening is a bit of a front to keep the feelings about it trapped inside. Not ideal obviously, but I wouldn't be writing him off just yet!
I think all you can do right now is wait and see how tomorrow (or whenever next session) goes, hopefully big brother will have taken something on board.

I’m sorry but OP doesn’t come across to me like she favours her youngest. She’s just mortified her eldest could be so cruel.
I think you were right to tell him off. It’s not ok what he did.

Surely if the boys are in holiday club it's because the parents are most likely working, therefore by not attending holiday club where would he actually go?

On the streets during the day, only returning when the street lights come on?

That would have been a reward for my dc!

I remember having a bit of this with my two. They are now 14 and 16 and I am proud of the way they are now (not all the time, they do fall out).

I also remember, around this age, my youngest finding it hard that his big brother didn’t want to play the same games as him anymore. That was really tough too.

I think the advice of team building a playing the long game is very good. Over the next few months, talk to them seperately about being a team and looking out for each other. I wouldn’t keep talking about it now. If he’s shrugging it might be he totally understands and doesn’t want to talk about it or can’t find the words.

I think a cuddle and a chat is good now.

We also have strict rules about any physical contact in our house, which I’m glad I started early as they are huge now. Loss of screen time and it goes both ways (eldest to youngest but, importantly, the other way round too).

I think you’ve had good advice about how to handle the boys and their relationship but I’d be pulling them out of that holiday club. Some are just really poor and run by bored teens and if this all happened without the staff noticing then I’m guessing it’s one of them. Also, it would probably be beneficial to find one where they’re divided into separate sub groups by age.