To be upset that my parents still think child abuse is ok

[RealGoldCrab]

Hello, everyone. I just had something on my mind for a bit that I wanted to share. I am originally from a post Soviet country, but have lived in the UK for over 10 years now, married to a British person and have a wonderful 2 years old DD (just turned 2). We recently went to see my parents in my home country and the whole trip made me so upset that I still cannot recover from it. The whole time we were there I was constantly critised about my parenting. My DD either ate too much or was too picky, but never perfect, my parents complained she was still not potty trained (when we were kids we were all potty trained before 18 months apparently). They said she is wild and has too many tantrums. My DD is a very active and emotional child, but also tantrums are developmentally normal at this age. In my opinion she is no different from other kids of her age that I know. But my parents made me feel like I failed as a parent and its my fault she had tantrums. They said she was badly behaved. One time we were driving in the car for a long time (over 3 hours) and then we stopped to have a meal. In my opinion, its hard for toddlers to cope with long car journeys but my daughter did so well and did not cry at all. At the restaurant she wanted to run around, which I stopped her doing. Then we were at the table she kept dropping the menu and then started shouting. I admit it was bad and I did my best to stop her. Maybe the long car journey influenced it. My parents were very annoyed and my mum just took my daughter out of a restaurant and did not let her finish the meal because of 'bad behaviour'. Later when we got back to the car they said that I need to start creating boundaries. I asked in what way. They basically said I need to start physically punish her, so give her a smack, pull her ear, pull her hair or just something like that to make her feel uncomfortable / feel pain. They said without physical punishment, my DD will grow up a spoiled brat. Needless to say, during the whole visit they made comments about my daughter like 'she deserves a smack', 'if gran was alive, she would pull her hair and she would stop that behaviour'. My dad once told my daughter 'if our cat was alive, he would scratch your face and teach you a lesson'.
All of that triggered memories from my own childhood. My parents used to give me a smack, pull my hair, pull my ear, slap my face, a couple of times they used a belt on me. They used to hit my brother with a belt in front of me. This was all normal in the 90s in my country, so I forgave them long time ago as I know they did not know better and it was pretty common back then in my country. I know my parents were also abused a lot as kids by their own parents. But I thought after all those years they would feel bad about it and regret it and maybe rethink what they did. However, this trip showed me they did not just not feel regret but also still think its normal to hit kids and offer me to do the same to my own DD. I would never do any of this to my child, I am completely against any kind of physical punishment, it terrifies me they think its ok to offer to cause pain and discomfort to my 2 year old child. They basically said 'words don't work', but I believe that talking to kids and be patient and understanding would do much more and go further way than giving them a smack. So basically that is it, I don't know what to do now and I also don't feel comfortable to let my daughter be around them. But I also not be able to cut any contact as I know my parents had hard life raising us, we were quite poor, and I would just feel enormous guilt cutting any contact with them. They still say they love their granddaughter a lot and constantly ask us to video call them and chat, but I just can't talk normally to them now not thinking about all this. Im glad we are back in the UK and not around them.

OP there’s nothing you need to do necessarily. You can carry on living your life in the UK and look after your DD as you see fit. You could of course try address the issue with your DP and explain your feelings, if you think that would help. But another option is to just reduce your visits home and, if you do visit, make sure your DD isn’t left with them unattended.

as for your own trauma of being abused by them as a child, maybe some other posters can offer advice

That sounds upsetting. How often do you need to see them? At least it's mainly video calls, so shorter periods and you can end them if they're critical. Maybe go for a shorter time next time and just keep saying "No mum I won't be assaulting my dd."
Mine are 18 and 21 and were never hit but have had no behaviour problems at all, verified by their schools. Until they're 3 I don't think they have much control over how they behave.

How about when they say or do something you don't lije you hive them a slap and see how they like it!! (Sorry not particularly helpful)

Maybe just don't go back to visit. And tell them why. Adults hurt children, not because it works or because they beed it,but because the adults are lacking in the emotional maturity to regulate themselves. It makes them feel powerful, feel good. Hitting and hurting children is bullying, pure and simple. They do it because they can. They don't hit other adults, because they know there's a very good chance they'll be hit right back!

Can you sit down with them and say all that you have said here? That you are upset they are continuing to support physical punishment when the world has largely moved on from this? That it is giving you reluctance to allow them to be alone with her and you want them to have a relationship? If you speak calmly and with the understanding you’ve shown of the context they behaved within, and they double down, then you will know that you’ve tried and the decision is on them. But maybe they will listen and reflect.

Firstly, toddlers are a shock to grandparents. We live abroad so my parents don't see my son regularly. When they saw him as a running and climbing 13 month old, they had a shock. They had completely forgotten what toddlers are like! It had been 36 years the last time they had been around a 1 year old, to be fair.

So i think there is that plus entrenched cultural and historical experience. They can't "feel bad" about what they did to you as it would be admitting to all kinds of things to themselves that they don't want to face.

I'm also from an Eastern European country originally and my parents' upbringing was frankly the stuff of nightmares. The abuse was off the charts and normalized. They both carry a lot of trauma because of it. But they are not going to stop and think about it too much now, are they? Their parents are in their 80s and dead or dying.

It's up to you to break the cycle.

You could point out that 70 countries have banned smacking. (Not England yet.)

I had such a similar experience with my DM when my DC were toddlers that we fell out very badly and went NC for years. We are back in touch now and she is very much over it (and my DC are massive so very much doubt any one will be smacking them!). I also had a lot of flashbacks to my own beltings as a small child. As a PP said, up to you to break the cycle. Plus, sadly, you can’t change the past so need to just work out how to best deal with it.

I would visit without DD. I’d be cross about this too. They obviously are not in tune with modern parenting and are stuck in their very poor parenting beliefs. Clearly you don’t want to hear it and I don’t blame you. Keep in contact but don’t offer up DD for criticism.

Different times back then,. I'm British, and grew up in the 80's, and I was treated much the same way by my mother. Slapped on the bottom or the back of the legs, or hand, occasionally the face, I was grabbed and shaken, bonked on the head with a hairbrush, pinched, hair pulled, soap in the mouth for swearing, that kind of thing. I didn't get to choose what was for dinner: I ate what was put in front of me or went hungry, I was forced to sit nicely, be pleasant, do as I was told. If I didn't conform to expectations, there were consequences. Usually some degree of physical pain was involved.

I don't view it as child abuse though.

I was a wilful, very dominant child. Punishments like taking toys away or time outs didn't mean a thing because I did not care and would not conform regardless. I'm actually grateful I was given boundaries in this way. It meant I knew there was a line, and I could only push it up to that line. Beyond the line lay pain, which was actually the only punishment that modified my sometimes atrocious behaviour.

I see a lot of badly behaved children who might actually benefit from a sharp slap to the back of the legs. I'm not suggesting children should be battered, or tortured, but a slap or a shake, judiciously applied, as correction and not as a parental loss of control, is often far more effective than trying to reason with children who have not yet developed such skills.

It is not yet illegal in the UK to give a bratty child a quick shake when it is deemed to be 'reasonable', although, no doubt it will be soon enough. Thankfully, my children are older. Both of them have been smacked. Very rarely, but, sometimes, I reasoned they needed it. They have both become well adjusted, socially competent young adults and do not view me as an ogre.

They’re right about you needing to create boundaries but not in the way they think! YOU are her mum, they don’t get to decide your dd can’t finish her meal. Find your strength, your inner mama bear. Dd needs to know you’ll not let anyone treat her badly and that what you say goes.

And if they can’t handle that, keep contact to a minimum.

@NewLimeFishit has been illegal in Scotland since 2020, and Wales since 2022

I slapped my toddler once. It shocked me because I was adamantly against that, but in the moment, I just reflexively reacted and did what I had learned from my own dps.

It wasn’t effective. My dd just got madder, louder, more indignant. Her db joined in. I wasn’t in control, I had lost control.

It was the first and last time. I learned how to put boundaries in earlier. There’s no magical method for dealing with a tantrum, but you can often head them off before they begin.

I read Calmer Easier Happier Parenting and it was a game changer. My parents completely changed their attitude to discipline because my dc were so nicely behaved. My dm said she wishes she could have learned from me back then.

@NewLimeFish I suggest you read up on abusive head trauma before advocating shaking small dc ffs

I was smacked as a child (born in the 70s) but my parents have never laid a finger on my DC or thought that I should, and I would have been very upset if they did. I think you should clearly tell your parents that you won't be parenting in that way.

I grew up in a similar way. If anything, my mum often toldme she regrets not smacking me more. She always used to ask if I smack/slap DD , pull her hair etc. when she was little , presumably to reassure herself about her own parenting.I told her No, because I didn’t need to. She was gobsmacked. She’s still waiting for DD to go off the rails to get her “I told you so” moment.

They “do not view me as an ogre”
…as far as you know.
My mum viciously smacked me as a very young child, also very occasionally but the memory is as clear as day even though I was 4 years old, because it was so traumatic. The rage in her eyes, the pain, how utterly terrified I was, how humiliating it was, how unjust it all was. I still resent her for it to this day and I’m in my late 30s. It fills me with rage everytime I think about it and it’s made me respect her less as a person overall. But obviously there’s no point in ever telling her all that, she’d just try and justify it or deny it, so you really have no idea whether your kids secretly hate you for it, they’ll never tell you.

I could never lay a finger on my 5 yo DD. She’s pushed me to my limits many times and I’ve shouted, screamed even but I could never, ever hit her. And importantly I always apologise if I really lose my shit. I don’t buy this BS that people who were smacked as kids “don’t know any different”. It’s actively made me choose to never hit my kids. If you remember the physical and emotional pain you suffered as a child then why would you want to inflict it on your own kids? There are so many more effective ways to parent. There’s a reason it’s banned in Scotland and will very likely soon be banned in England.

@RealGoldCrab would your parents be likely to read any research-backed articles about how pointless and damaging smacking is? If so you could try sending them some. Maybe also some about how a 2-year-old does not understand the concept of “sitting nicely” in a restaurant. They sound like they know nothing about children. I think you need to be very firm with them and tell them you will parent your child how you choose and you won’t put up with being criticised and they don’t ever get to discipline or punish your child. Otherwise they can say goodbye to those video calls…

Those are their (abhorrent) views but they are not in control of how you parent. They can say 'I think beating the crap out of kids makes them happy, well rounded and successful in later life' but it doesn't make it true.

Just stand firm and say 'I do not believe in corporal punishment and if you ever hurt my child, or any other, I would stop contact permanently and involve the police. I will not discuss it further as my views are set in stone and I need them to be respected.'

Then if they don't listen stand your ground. And do as you say.

I think you are unlikely to convince them, but you might be able to set a boundary around not discussing it.

If you want to keep things simple, have a set phrase if it comes up such as "That's illegal in England these days/don't be silly, nobody does that where we are from" (even if it's a stretch of the truth, it is considered inappropriate borderline abusive anyway). Or "Mum/Dad, we are the parents and it's our decision how to raise DD, thank you." (e.g. while taking DD back in to the restaurant to eat).

Even though their suggestions are horrible, they do come from a place of love and concern. Someone who only has experience of physical discipline and totally sees that as the norm may well struggle to see how on earth anything "less scary" could possibly work. It could be that these methods are still common in that country, so they may see/hear parents using or threatening this kind of thing in daily life reinforcing that it is "normal" even if other parents have moved on to more modern methods. They are wanting to save you the trouble of having an unruly, badly behaved child, and the heartache of your child growing into a "bad" adult, even if they are extremely outdated in their understanding of how to achieve these things.

You know because you live in a country and culture where these methods are no longer used that it is possible to bring up children properly without it, so you don't need to worry that they might be right. It might help to see it as a sort of superstition that you no longer share.

Since you live in the UK, it's not like they are likely to have a large amount of contact with your DC, so I would lean in to that - they could still have a nice relationship speaking over video, and I would just try to minimise or avoid any time where they will have sole care for the DC, especially while they are at young ages where they haven't developed much control over their behaviour yet. As DC get older, you can also explain to them directly that their grandparents have some old fashioned beliefs and reassure them that you will never hit/hurt them as discipline.

To deal with your own hurt/upset about the whole thing it might help to speak to a therapist, maybe? It might help to separate out the two/three issues - the fact they used this kind of discipline on you and your brother, the fact that their understanding about appropriate discipline hasn't updated as yours has, and the fact they keep trying to advise you about how to discipline your own child.

The first is quite hurtful but could be forgivable in the way you previously felt you had forgiven them, the second has possibly shocked/surprised you and therefore rocked an assumption that this forgiveness was possibly based on, the last is a simple boundary issue and doesn't need to be emotional but of course it will be emotional if it is bringing up unresolved feelings about the first issue.

As you say their background, culture and approach to parenting is very different from most people in the UK now.
You don't have to forgive them for your upbringing or to cut all ties with them but you do need to protect your child. So never leave her alone with them and when you visit them stay in different accomodation so you can limit your time with them and the time your child spends with them. If they visit you here book an Air BnB for them and tell them it will be better for them as obviously they find being with small children stressful.

It clearly is child abuse!
My children were born in the 80s and neither i nor anyone I knew treated our children like that!
I thought smacking was wrong then and I still do. I'm very pleased that although it is not illegal in England yet it is socially unacceptable.

@RealGoldCrab My DP is from a western European culture.

they were similar, I don't know the full detail as I don't speak the language well.

But for sure they told DP we should physically punish our children, starting around a similar age, and that they would grow up to be wild and uncontrollable if we didn't.

I think they were genuinely fearful of this outcome.

DPs parents had a special whip to physically discipline DP and his siblings, this was normal in their country in the 1980s.

they were critical of all my parenting, openly said we should send the DC to them for weeks at a time without us. (DC have never spent overnight time with them and never will).

It was very difficult, I think harder for DP who heard all they had to say, had to deal with their criticism and pressure and mediate between them and my firm boundaries on it all (he was broadly supportive of my choices, choose me to walk a different path, but at various points it was hard and his DP were willing to play plenty of fear, obligation, guilt cards).

I learned:

• No really is a complete sentence
• Speaking a different language is helpful. I didn't understand the worst of their criticism which made it easier to ignore. They could literally be shouting at our kids and if I spoke to out kids in English it was like I'd muted the GP.
• To limit the time we spent with them and plan it carefully. Various things they still propose I will never agree to. DP is on board with it all now as he sees it's successful.
• Very little to no unsupervised GP time with the DCs, certainly none at all when they were little.

As babies and toddlers it was awful. MIL tried to undermine my breastfeeding. Appeared in our room one night when newborn DC was crying and told me to hand the baby over. Organised unreasonable and demanding outings (lunch in a hot resturant in full sun and then gleefully noted baby wasn't sleeping was too hot).

Some things I will never forgive.

But with very firm boundaries, 10 years later we've more or less worked through it.

Our kids are wonderful and they are happy to see that. They have come to understand that we do have boundaries for them, just uphold them differently, and that can be successful.

The relationship between the DC and GPs is better due to my boundaries and mediation than if we've folded and gone with their asks (DC's cousins were sent to stay with them as kids now refuse to see them as young adults).

It is harder if they are your own parents though. Good luck. Be kind to yourself and firm with them.

You grew up in a different era to now and your parents grew up in an even more different era to you. I'd imagine your parents grew up during a tough time in your country. Your parents don't know any different and are probably ignorant of the emotional affects physical punishments can have on children.

It sounds as if your daughter is behaving like any other 2 year old (personally, I found aged 3 harder work with my son!). They start to push boundaries a little, as they are more aware. Yes, of course you have to put boundaries in place, and have punishments like 'time-out', or 'reward charts' etc, work, without the need for smacking.

With regards to your parents, please don't let them think you are doing anything wrong or somehow failing your daughter. You are parenting in your own way, and in a way that aligns with your own morals. Often our parents forget what it's like to have a toddler running around, and it can be a shock! You no longer live in your home country, so you don't have to see them often. Just keep video calling light and breezy with them.

I would imagine the reason you’re finding it difficult to recover from the visit is Your experiences of receiving the same treatment as a young child where woken up in your brain and triggered a whole load of responses.

Right now, if I was you, I would give them a long wide birth, which hopefully you can do if you’re not living in the same country, And I would seek some talk therapy of some sort.

I was smacked as a child too - but it’s the lazy way out. My mother agrees with this too but my father still thinks smacking children is OK.

It takes longer to put the necessary boundaries in place without physical abuse, but it’s more effective (you don’t run the risk of your kids being terrified of you) and it’s obviously the right thing to do.

Nobody should be physically assaulted ever and that includes kids.