How can I get DD (age 10) to be more independent and less stuck on old routines?

[EllieQ]

Short version: DD is 10 and in Year 6. She was an easygoing toddler, but we had to have very strict routines from the age of about 4 due to tantrums and defiance about things like getting dressed. She also became very picky about food. This lasted until she was 6-7 (with lockdown in the middle of this). Out of habit, we still use those routines/ rules, but I want DD to become more independent as she’s starting secondary school next year. She is an only child so we didn’t need to adjust the routine to accommodate a younger child, and we’re stuck in a rut.

Has anyone been in a similar situation, and how did you change things? What is your usual routine between school and bedtime? One of us is at home after school, but will usually be working until about 5.

Very long version: These routines are now very drawn out, and if there are delays, it’s getting ridiculous - last night’s bath and bedtime routine went from 8.15 to 9.55 - far too late for a school night! Partly caused by DH cooking dinner later than normal - she should have been upstairs by 7.30. I also find it frustrating when the long bedtime routine means my evening is lost. Last night I didn’t get downstairs until 10, then I was tired and needed to be in bed by 10.30.

I’m also getting irritated by DD’s need for constant instruction, which is obviously very unfair when we have trained her to always ask for instructions. Eg: when she says ‘What can I do next?’ on a weekend morning with no other plans, I’d like her to say ‘Can I do X’ instead.

One issue is that she is very into playing computer games (all age-appropriate) and that’s all she wants to do at home, so that has to be managed. She also struggles with transitions, so if I say she can have 30 minutes on the computer, I have to set a timer, give her a five minute warning, and it still takes about 5-10 minutes for her to stop (selective hearing about the timer, just needs to finish a particular thing, just needs to save the game). I have a chronic disease that affects my energy levels, and I often let her have too much time on the computer, especially after school, because I can’t face the effort it will take to get her to stop and get her to do something else. I know this makes me sound like a useless parent, but I sometimes just do not have the energy to do that on top of everything else. I’m also in my late 40s and probably perimenopausal, and my energy levels have definitely decreased in the past few years. Plus we are having a tough time at the moment (PIL health issues; DH being made redundant), so I often take the easy route right now.

I prefer routines and rules, so I know I’m clinging to this setup for my convenience. DH is much more relaxed about these things, which is good as he balances me, but sometimes he’s too laid back, then complains that he ‘doesn’t know where the time goes’. See the late start to dinner above! However, he agrees that things need to change and will generally do as I ask about routines and timings. I think that DD also does best with a routine - it just needs to change now she is older.

If you are reading all this and thinking ‘possible neurodiversity’ - we’ve thought that too, and have discussed it with school. As DD has improved as she got older, we’re not doing anything more that monitoring at the moment. I know that ND girls can often manage at primary but struggle with the move to secondary, so I’m worried about this too. DH and I probably have some ND traits as well, but not enough for a diagnosis or to struggle with everyday life.

If you have managed to get through this wall of text, any suggestions or advice would be welcome!

• Edited to add - DD does better if she has a routine to follow, so I need advice on shifting to a less strict routine that will encourage her to be more independent and require less supervision from us.

Sometimes age expectations just aren't achievable by the individual child. My similar age child couldn't do any of your list independently, so I work at their level. My kids are autistic and much of what you have written is familiar to my life.

I have on ND and one NT and it's very different. My 9 year old son will mess around and drag things out of course, but with my daughter it's more like she gets stuck and can't quite get to the next step. Or something really minor happens and she can't move on from it as the whole routine is broken now. It's really different when you see both reactions together.

"I'm no expert but don't all kids get distracted easily and prefer some kind of routine?"

It's a fair question. I think the answer is yes. The difference lies in what happens when the routine isn't there. NT children tend to adapt. ND children often don't.

Parents of ND children often develop strong routines without realising they've done it because they have worked out that their child is more settled when they do. But until they compare themselves with other families, they don't realise that their normal isn't 'normal'. When they're turning down a playdate because it's Wednesday and Charlie has a bath after school on a Wednesday. Or the swimming class finishes at 6.30 but dinner time is 6pm... Most NT households would just flex and think 'Ok, so bath on Tuesday' or 'quick tea when we get home and snack after swimming...'.

DD1 is 19. We visit Nanny and Grandad every morning. I'm not well so my DF said not to visit today (I visit partly for DD1, but partly because DM is disabled, so it supports DF). DD1 could see that I was in bed and unwell. But it was morning and we visit Nanny and Grandad. She just couldn't cope with me being too unwell, so my Dad came and collected her.

It sounds like she’s willing to do things for herself, she just needs help developing the right skills - that’s a really good place to be starting from.

With hair washing, could you get her a scalp massager to use when shampooing and a tangle teezer to brush through her hair when washing out the conditioner? I have ADHD and hate washing my hair so I do mine this way on bad days. It makes it feel a tiny bit easier!

Most of this sounds pretty normal to me. I see my daughter in some of it. For things that are part of a routine, I find tick lists help. She loves completing a tick list and it means I can leave her to it without having to instruct every bit of it. There are areas of life she's highly independent and areas where she's not, it's all a process and every child is different.

That's really interesting to compare tendencies side by side, thanks for sharing.

I see what you mean, that's very illuminating, thank you.

@EleventyThree your openness is quite refreshing! Even at her special school, DD2 had a TA say to her 'Are you making this up so you can go home' because DD2 couldn't tell her what was wrong (because she was on the verge of a panic attack). Fortunately DD3 goes to the same school and was with her. She said 'No, she's not, she just can't talk now because she's going to have a panic attack and she doesn't know what's wrong, just that it all feels bad'.

She sounds quite screen addicted if this is something shes doing daily after school and it probably doesnt help her learn how to play/exist more independently and find things do if screen is often the only answer, so id be trying to reduce the screen use big time tbh.
Can you try and switch the bath out for a shower? Also, why does it take up your evening if she goes and has a lomg bath? Aged ten she shouldnt need supervising in the bath, cant you leave her to it and go and watch telly?

Gosh that's so distressing for a child not be believed and even worse coming from school staff who should be knowledgeable about supporting neurodivergent children. Thank goodness your other daughter is well tuned-in to her sister.

Also what is she watchimg on the ipad? Im guessing its stuff like short videos on youtube etc.
Wouldnt it be better to let her watch a bit of regular tv, longer shows with proper storylines that she needs to concentrate on watching and follow?
Why an ipad up close rather than just sitting on the sofa watching tv?

Wow this post really resonated with me regarding the long winded bedtime routine and possible ND/Autism.

I finally contacted the GP and her SENDCo on Friday to get the ball rolling to look at getting her a diagnosis.

My DD is in Y7 and only around June/July time did I suspect any ND as she was displaying OCD symptoms around fear about transitioning to secondary school and is on a waiting list for CBT. She got extra support in July and is now seeing a mentor weekly at school. My sister pointed out considering autism as this is the age where the might not be able to mask any more (once secondary school starts and all the new demands that brings) and the wheels can come off. After looking into it I don’t know how I didn’t realise. It was like a lightbulb moment. Just have to hope school believe me as one, they don’t really know her well yet, but also you would never suspect at school other than her being shy/quiet. At home she’s a complete different person and I now have a 3-4 page Word document of possible traits, including things she did as a younger child.

I also thought about just monitoring it, but as others have said, it’s a long process and you don’t want to wait until the wheels do fall off and she can’t cope anymore. So I thought it was worth exploring and getting the ball rolling.

Her bedtime routine is also long winded and she faffs (also faffs when leaving the house and when starting homework) and it gives me the rage, so I am reading into how I can adapt the way I parent so that she becomes a bit more independent whilst also creating a quicker routine, so that I don’t get annoyed and tell her to hurry up, which makes her angry. I think she will always take a bit longer than the average person, because she needs routine, but we need to try and shorten the routine. So I feel your pain, including not having a night. Even when she is finally in bed she calls out “don’t forget my x” and “make sure the back door is locked” (it is an OCD thing) etc. I am reading a book called The Explosive Child, which explains how to come up with solutions together to solve problems (I.e. the problem of simplifying/changing the bedtime routine). It may not all be relevant to you if your DD doesn’t get angry, but could still be worth a read as the method means she may be more receptive to change.

Wishing you all the luck with finding a solution together, I am with you! Starting tonight I want mine to sort out her bath by herself (instead of me running it like she’s still 5 and hovering around while she’s in there because she likes talking to me). Fingers crossed for us both!

For some disabled people, it isn’t as simple as insisting they take a shower instead of a bath. DS1 will never independently wash. He hates baths and showers. Baths are manageable. Difficult but manageable with various adjustments. Showers are not. At all. And we have tried. This has been acknowledged by professionals because we have a rise and fall bath funded when normally the go to is funding a shower instead wherever possible because it is cheaper.

A shower is a different sensory experience that some people can’t cope with.

And that may turn out to be the case here, in which case they can adapt accordingly, but it doesn’t sound like they’ve actually tried showers yet. The OP just said she’d suggested it and her DD didn’t seem keen.

@DingDongJingle which is why I said some people. I didn’t say all. My post was in response to those saying OP should insist DD takes showers. For some, no amount of insisting will work.

Whenever we have found something isn't working, we sit down with dc and agree a new routine between us. You might be surprised what she suggests.

The thing that jumps out to me is solo screen time. I would cut out the iPad at bedtime - let her have this after school while you are working so she can wind down after school (maybe set up some screen restrictions so she gets an hour per day maximum). Then it's any must do activity like homework, music practice or getting things ready for school the next day. Get her to help with dinner or entertain herself - reading, LEGO, crafts etc. I've found that if the suggestion to 'what can I do next' is lay the table, it's surprising how quickly they can find something else to do! And if not, they can learn to be helpful - win win! After dinner I would try and find an activity you can do together that is mutually enjoyable e.g.TV shows you can watch together or a board game. Try and focus this on something you would enjoy so it's less about losing your evening and more sharing it.

The first thing that jumped out at me was upstairs for 7:30 is very early for a year 6 child. She's probably not even close to tired at that point, hence why she's dragging her heels. It's natural to lose your evenings as your children get older.
My own kids are 8 and in clubs 2 nights a week that finish later than that.

Generally though... What's the problem with her being routine-driven? It sounds like that's something you've insisted on since she was a small child, and now it no longer suits you/your energy levels, you're doing a 180 on her.

I don’t have a problem with having a routine, it’s just that the current routine doesn’t seem fit for purpose anymore and I’ve realised we need to adjust it. I appreciate that I didn’t make this clear in my OP.

The 7.30 start is on bath nights only, she goes upstairs at 8 on other nights. In both cases, she’s in bed by 9, which seems right for her. Any later than 9.30 means she’s visibly tired the following morning.

Thanks everyone, lots of food for thought around routines, independence, and too much screen time (we are definitely guilty of this). It’s really useful to see the routines you have for your ten year olds and your suggestions on how to tweak things.

It’s clear to me now that we’ve stuck with the current bedtime routine out of habit, basically, and a reluctance to acknowledge DD getting older and needing a different approach. She does do a lot of the routine independently - we don’t lay out her clothes /PJs or help her get dressed, don’t help her in the bath apart from hair washing (this isn’t every bath time), so our input is just:

• Timings (time on iPad, brushing teeth)
• Monitoring what she’s watching
• Hurrying her along if she’s taking ten minutes to get undressed.

All of which could be done differently. For example, I probably wouldn’t care if she took ten minutes to get into PJs if I was downstairs, as long as she was in bed by 9. It feels more frustrating when I’m sitting upstairs watching the clock!

The comments about potential neurodiversity (mine and DD’s) have also been really useful, but I don’t have time to respond to them right now as I’m at work. They’ve given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate them.

Another point worth considering is that although lots of people are saying that your bedtime starts too early, if she is ND she may need it. DD1 (19) is quite complex and has a combination of physical issues, learning disability and ND. She is distraught if we make her wait past 7.30pm to go to bed. DD3 (16) has ASD and ADHD. She starts getting ready for bed at 8pm and is lights out by 8.30pm. They've used all their energy up by then. DD2 (18) actually goes to sleep later, but she is in bed pretty much all evening after dinner. She procrastinates, which is why she goes to sleep later.

This is bonkers. You say she struggles with transitions but you’re literally giving her 2 blocks of iPad time whilst expecting her to be calm for bed. That’s 2 x number of transitions “off”.

I would remove the ipad upstairs. Probably not have it at all after dinner.

when you’re going to bed, you’re going to bed. Shower/teeth/pjs then 20-30 mins reading time. Maybe you’ll need to read to her to begin with if she isn’t used to reading on her own. Or you do a chapter and then she does a chapter on her own.

you tube and iPads are terrible for sleep, that must go.