How can I get DD (age 10) to be more independent and less stuck on old routines?

[EllieQ]

Short version: DD is 10 and in Year 6. She was an easygoing toddler, but we had to have very strict routines from the age of about 4 due to tantrums and defiance about things like getting dressed. She also became very picky about food. This lasted until she was 6-7 (with lockdown in the middle of this). Out of habit, we still use those routines/ rules, but I want DD to become more independent as she’s starting secondary school next year. She is an only child so we didn’t need to adjust the routine to accommodate a younger child, and we’re stuck in a rut.

Has anyone been in a similar situation, and how did you change things? What is your usual routine between school and bedtime? One of us is at home after school, but will usually be working until about 5.

Very long version: These routines are now very drawn out, and if there are delays, it’s getting ridiculous - last night’s bath and bedtime routine went from 8.15 to 9.55 - far too late for a school night! Partly caused by DH cooking dinner later than normal - she should have been upstairs by 7.30. I also find it frustrating when the long bedtime routine means my evening is lost. Last night I didn’t get downstairs until 10, then I was tired and needed to be in bed by 10.30.

I’m also getting irritated by DD’s need for constant instruction, which is obviously very unfair when we have trained her to always ask for instructions. Eg: when she says ‘What can I do next?’ on a weekend morning with no other plans, I’d like her to say ‘Can I do X’ instead.

One issue is that she is very into playing computer games (all age-appropriate) and that’s all she wants to do at home, so that has to be managed. She also struggles with transitions, so if I say she can have 30 minutes on the computer, I have to set a timer, give her a five minute warning, and it still takes about 5-10 minutes for her to stop (selective hearing about the timer, just needs to finish a particular thing, just needs to save the game). I have a chronic disease that affects my energy levels, and I often let her have too much time on the computer, especially after school, because I can’t face the effort it will take to get her to stop and get her to do something else. I know this makes me sound like a useless parent, but I sometimes just do not have the energy to do that on top of everything else. I’m also in my late 40s and probably perimenopausal, and my energy levels have definitely decreased in the past few years. Plus we are having a tough time at the moment (PIL health issues; DH being made redundant), so I often take the easy route right now.

I prefer routines and rules, so I know I’m clinging to this setup for my convenience. DH is much more relaxed about these things, which is good as he balances me, but sometimes he’s too laid back, then complains that he ‘doesn’t know where the time goes’. See the late start to dinner above! However, he agrees that things need to change and will generally do as I ask about routines and timings. I think that DD also does best with a routine - it just needs to change now she is older.

If you are reading all this and thinking ‘possible neurodiversity’ - we’ve thought that too, and have discussed it with school. As DD has improved as she got older, we’re not doing anything more that monitoring at the moment. I know that ND girls can often manage at primary but struggle with the move to secondary, so I’m worried about this too. DH and I probably have some ND traits as well, but not enough for a diagnosis or to struggle with everyday life.

If you have managed to get through this wall of text, any suggestions or advice would be welcome!

• Edited to add - DD does better if she has a routine to follow, so I need advice on shifting to a less strict routine that will encourage her to be more independent and require less supervision from us.

I think independence levels vary from child to child - My DD14 is very self sufficient, my DS12 is not! He’s in year 7, I had assumed wrongly that he, like his sister would be keen to be independent at school and organise everything for himself - he doesn’t.

Also prepare for the loss of your evenings. It’s painful but 9pm is earliest I get my two at least in bed/reading. DD14 if often up past 11pm when I’m fast asleep.

There seems to be two problems here - your DD has a routine you think she may have grown out of plus as parents you're not sticking to your own rules.
This puts your DD in a tricky situation - you've created the rules, you yourself like routines, the parents are often the ones not sticking to current timings, but you want her to change?

Given this: I think that DD also does best with a routine I don't really understand why you want her to not have a routine?

Can you maybe list your current routine and explain what you actually want to transition to? That might help people to advise.

Upstairs by 7:30 is very early for age 10.

at that age mine were at Scouts/guides which finished at 9pm.

You are going to lose your evenings as she gets older.

As a parent of also a year 6 , 7.30 is very early unless you needs that amount of sleep? My youngest is 6 and is upstairs in bed by 8.15!

Our 10 year old has a lot more independence , he plays out with friends , can be left for periods of time on his own ( practice for secondary school as no wrap around care), can be trusted with a house key when he bikes too / from school to let himself in.
My parenting is more relaxed, we’ve no strict timings on Xbox or Switch but he must read each day. And turn devices off at 2045hrs in preparation for bed.

How is she like at school? What are their thoughts re any ND?

@Octavia64 and @Summmeeerrrrisherenearly030933939 - being upstairs at 7.30 is for bath nights due to how long it all takes. The other nights she’s upstairs at 8 and is usually in bed by 9, due to the dragging out of the routine. That seems to be the right amount of sleep for her - she usually wakes up between 7-7.30 in the morning. She was definitely tired this morning after getting into bed just before 10 last night.

I know that when she’s older, DH and I won’t have that time to ourselves in the evenings, and I think that’s why I’m getting frustrated now as I’m aware it won’t be happening in the future!

Can the baths be swapped for showers? So much quicker.

Something that really helped us as well was making a rule that the bedroom light goes out a 9 - leaves a lot less room for faffing and gives you some of your evening back.

My 10 year old showers rather than baths and does it herself without my involvement, could this be an option? What does your current bedtime routine look like? Mine gets herself ready for bed, gets into bed with a book and half an hour later I go in and have a little chat/say goodnight/switch the light off so it’s not at all onerous for me.

@Summmeeerrrrisherenearly030933939 DD is generally fine at school - well behaved, has a small group of friends that she’s close to, and gets good marks. We have discussed possible ND with her teacher (she’s had the same teacher for Year 5 & 6), who agrees that while DD has some traits (struggles with noisy environments, for example), it’s not causing her difficulty at school. She had some support from the ELSA team last as she was struggling to settle into Year 5, and that helped her with techniques to calm down if she felt overwhelmed. Her teacher said they can make sure she has extra support for the transition to secondary school. I am very concerned that it could all go wrong at secondary, but I am prone to heading straight for the worst case scenario so could be worrying over nothing.

In terms of independence from you, could she transition to following a written routine, or one from Alexa/similar (advantage: Alexa won't lose track of time)?

In terms of updating and slimming down the routine, what does she say if you talk to her about it? If you frame it in terms of giving her more time to do something she enjoys? The half an hour for a bath, fair enough, many people enjoy that, but even after that it sounds like she's spending an hour or more of her day 'getting ready for bed' – and I'm assuming that's not 10 minutes getting ready and 50 minutes reading in bed.

Should have said mine is in bed for 8pm and lights off for 8.30pm as she has to be up for 6.15am. She goes up and gets her pyjamas on/brushes teeth etc at 7.45pm.

This is really insightful @verycloakanddaggers and you are quite right that we are giving her mixed messages - I want her to be independent, but I’m still giving her instructions and hovering over her. I should clarify that I do still want her to have a routine, but a more age-appropriate one - I’ve asked MNHQ to add this to my OP as it’s not very clear.

I’m at work now, but I’ll come back and add details of the existing routine when I finish in a couple of hours as a couple of people have asked. Really appreciate all the responses so far.

I’m trying to wean mine off using me as her brain (also 10 and yr 6). It’s a mixed bag in terms of success, she’s very independent with homework and school related admin (P.E kits etc) but home and personal care tasks are definitely still a work in progress. She would never wash her hair unless prompted! Her evening routine is more flexible than yours by the sound of things, we also quite open with her that we want to watch things after 9pm that are not suitable for her so she needs to be in her room reading or sleeping!

A couple of people have asked about the usual bedtime routine, which is: upstairs with one of us at 8 (can be later if it’s not a school night); ten minutes on the iPad (YouTube or drawing app) or reading; wash face, brush teeth, into PJs; another ten minutes iPad/ reading time; then into bed. DD sits with us in our room during this so we can monitor what she’s watching on YouTube (the iPad is mine, she doesn’t have her own tablet or phone). Whoever is doing bedtime stays upstairs for about fifteen minutes once she’s in bed in case she wants something.

It should take about 30 minutes, but it usually takes DD a couple of minutes to come off the iPad, then another couple of minutes to actually leave our room, then it can take her ten minutes just to get into PJs as she gets distracted or sometimes just zones out. This means it usually takes 45 minutes to about an hour. On bath nights, she’s upstairs for 7.30 and it takes around 30 minutes including hair washing, then there’s the usual bedtime routine. Again, there’s a lot of faffing - she probably spends about ten minutes actually in the bath.

Written down, I can see how much of this is influenced by her younger years! At age 4, when she was kicking off at bedtime, we introduced a rule that if she went upstairs straight away, she got to watch an episode of something on CBeebies, then another once she was into PJs and had brushed her teeth. We used to have to sit in the room with her until she was asleep, then managed to shift that to staying upstairs. And we’re still doing that now.

What would I like the routine to be? This question made me realise I honestly can’t imagine DD just going upstairs and getting herself ready for bed without one of us keeping her on track. But that is what we should be aiming for.

Another poster asked about how independent DD is. She’s very good at keeping track of school things, packing her school bag etc, and walks to and from school by herself since the start of Year 6. She’s been left at home for 5-10 minutes on her own, but seems unsure about a longer time. She seems to need instructions for a lot of other things or how she can occupy her time, but this could be a result of how strict we had to be when she was younger. She doesn’t seem bothered if we don’t do bath/ hair washing on the usual nights, so I don’t think she’d do it independently if I didn’t prompt her. She doesn’t seem to pay attention to her surroundings eg: if her school uniform is still drying downstairs on Monday morning, she will walk past it, go upstairs, then ask where her uniform is. She doesn’t do many chores or help around the house, and I’m definitely guilty of just doing things for her because it’s easier.

This is giving me lots of food for thought, thank you everyone.

I think my focus would be on getting a referral for an assessment.
There is so much there that is suggesting neurodiversity.
Girls, statistically come unstuck at secondary age.
Waiting lists are long.

I would be amazed if she isn’t autistic. You need to get her on an assessment pathway.

You can discuss the new routine with her an create a visual timetable to get one of those whiteboard with sliders to tick of when she has done a task.

I think you're doing her a disservice by not getting her assessed for ADHD/Autism. What's the logic in 'monitoring' it until it becomes a massive problem at secondary school rather than just dealing with it now before it becomes a problem?

In terms of routine, as you say this is the routine for a much younger child, a ten year old should be way more independent. How much of this is just relying on an old routine and how much is routed in neurodiversity you won't really know until you try.

I would sit down with DD and come up with a new routine together. I would suggest something like, she goes upstairs (alone) at 7:30 pm and has a shower, gets her PJ's on and brushes her teeth. She then has until 8:30pm to play on the iPad (I'd probably do this downstairs so you don't have to sit in bed with her) the quicker she gets ready the more time she has. iPad off, upstairs and in bed reading at 8:30pm. Lights out at 9pm. I would allow her to mess this up and have no time for the iPad as many times as that needs to happen before she learns to manage her time (give her advice on how to do this, perhaps give her a timer so she can set herself limits but don't chase her).

Definitely push for assessment now, there's no real benefit to waiting and the harm from waiting might be a lot if she really does come unstuck in secondary.

Can you work with her to change the routine? Ask for her input, which will get her thinking more independently about time management and suchlike. I would cut out the ipad at bedtime altogether, or like another poster suggested, link it to being done with bath/shower and teeth brushing in time. But personally I would go for shower instead of bath most evenings, brush teeth and pyjamas on straight after that, then reading time (do you still read to her? If you don't, it might be a nice replacement for ipad time and a good transition to bed. Otherwise have her read in bed as that's really good for settling for sleep) and a set lights off time.

For her always asking you what she can do next, perhaps you can start by giving her choices each time she asks so she has to think about what she'd like to do and choose, then over time when she asks what to do next ask her what she would like to do and let her choose. Hopefully after a while of that she'll stop asking and start making her own decisions.

She needs an assessment. It sounds like she's masking in school and that's hiding the executive dysfunction, you're then seeing it at home.

I'm AuDHD. I can function in a senior management job by day, but I need routines at home so that everything gets done. If I can't follow these routines for any reason, the wheels come off. Work trips throw me off. I've had family caregiving needs and that's thrown me off. Nobody at work ever sees it, it's only evident at home. DS1 is similar (autistic, highly intelligent but poor EF).

I used to take stupidly long showers to recover from the demands of a school day, or eat, because if I was either showering or eating, nobody could demand anything from me, like homework or chores. I also couldn't go to bed without prompting to do the tasks, because the transition was overwhelming. Going to bed is not just going to bed. There are so many tasks involved before you can actually get into bed, it is not just going to bed. The reason I'm awake at this time in fact is because I could not do the required things to go to bed this evening and fell asleep on the sofa instead.

There is no shame in needing routines and needing prompting to do the tasks. It may be a case of finding other external sources than a parent - things like the Finch app maybe, or using white boards, finding ways for her to get some dopamine out of accomplishing the components of each task. Preparing for school next day could be an evening routine task, and then there's less to do in the morning (and she can do that while you have some time to yourself).

Someone upthread suggested a shower instead of a bath, I also wondered about this.

Why do you need to go upstairs with her when she prepares for bed? Can’t you just send her up to bed to get ready for bed? Maybe if she’s a routine person, have a list up of what she needs to do. Ditch the iPad and just have books if you’re concerned about what she’s looking at. Maybe initially, send her up to bed to get ready , and say you’ll be up in fifteen minutes to sit with her when she’s reading.

Op I agree with all above re showers and bedtime and routine- I also want to add she’s a child! This is what they do! You’re expecting her to think and act like an adult but she’s ten! All children nowadays are hooked on screens and haven’t gotten the ability to be bored and figure out what to do without us saying ‘why don’t you..,’ The ones who do just go do things are the ones who have been going without screens imo. I think the more she’s left with crafts/ books/ a football/ basketball etc the more likely she is to get to things herself but remember she’s had a long week and it’s her weekend and she’s used to having a ton of kids around her during the week. It’s essentially stepping into a new routine

I have an autistic daughter who is 12. We are 2 years into our wait for an nhs assessment so I’d get started on that path now as you’ll be waiting a while anyway.

My daughter is very rules and routine oriented and hates change. She’s also very clingy - to me, not my husband. She gets home from dance between 730-9 so my evenings are gone now regardless, so I prioritise some reset time on weekends or take a day off work by myself now and again.

I think the faffing is slightly inevitable but the routine is too complicated. Too many steps and too many bits of tiny screen time. Could you shift to ready for bed then a tv show together? Then it’s a bit calmer for you as well. My daughter loves all the sewing bee, bake-off, etc genre so we watch those together.

She needs an assessment.

That's the priority.

How much of her bedtime routine is she actually capable of doing herself? Can she put her PJs on and put her clothes away? Clean her teeth? wash her face? Brush her hair?

Could you send her up at 8 to get ready for bed and then she can come down to read/ipad until 9, when it's straight upstairs and into bed, a cuddle good night and lights out? The faster she gets ready for bed, the more reading/ipad time she gets?

You say "Whoever is doing bedtime stays upstairs for about fifteen minutes once she’s in bed in case she wants something." It sounds like a strategy for stopping a 7 year old from constantly coming downstairs to ask for a cuddle, then a glass of water, etc. At 10 does she really need this?

She does all her bedtime routine herself - getting changed, washing face, brushing teeth etc, but needs someone to time her teeth brushing (advised by the dentist). However she has been asking about getting an electric toothbrush, so us timing her wouldn’t be needed anymore. She also baths herself but needs me to wash her hair.

You are right about the reason for us waiting upstairs - previously we had to sit in the room with her (age 3-5), so sitting in our room was an improvement! She occasionally calls for us (the last two reasons were hearing a strange noise, and before that it was leg cramp), but it’s very rare. She’s only ever come downstairs after bedtime once, when she’d had a bad dream.

For the teeth timing you could also get an egg timer she could turn, or one of the electronic timers that plays a jaunty tune!