How can I get DD (age 10) to be more independent and less stuck on old routines?

[EllieQ]

Short version: DD is 10 and in Year 6. She was an easygoing toddler, but we had to have very strict routines from the age of about 4 due to tantrums and defiance about things like getting dressed. She also became very picky about food. This lasted until she was 6-7 (with lockdown in the middle of this). Out of habit, we still use those routines/ rules, but I want DD to become more independent as she’s starting secondary school next year. She is an only child so we didn’t need to adjust the routine to accommodate a younger child, and we’re stuck in a rut.

Has anyone been in a similar situation, and how did you change things? What is your usual routine between school and bedtime? One of us is at home after school, but will usually be working until about 5.

Very long version: These routines are now very drawn out, and if there are delays, it’s getting ridiculous - last night’s bath and bedtime routine went from 8.15 to 9.55 - far too late for a school night! Partly caused by DH cooking dinner later than normal - she should have been upstairs by 7.30. I also find it frustrating when the long bedtime routine means my evening is lost. Last night I didn’t get downstairs until 10, then I was tired and needed to be in bed by 10.30.

I’m also getting irritated by DD’s need for constant instruction, which is obviously very unfair when we have trained her to always ask for instructions. Eg: when she says ‘What can I do next?’ on a weekend morning with no other plans, I’d like her to say ‘Can I do X’ instead.

One issue is that she is very into playing computer games (all age-appropriate) and that’s all she wants to do at home, so that has to be managed. She also struggles with transitions, so if I say she can have 30 minutes on the computer, I have to set a timer, give her a five minute warning, and it still takes about 5-10 minutes for her to stop (selective hearing about the timer, just needs to finish a particular thing, just needs to save the game). I have a chronic disease that affects my energy levels, and I often let her have too much time on the computer, especially after school, because I can’t face the effort it will take to get her to stop and get her to do something else. I know this makes me sound like a useless parent, but I sometimes just do not have the energy to do that on top of everything else. I’m also in my late 40s and probably perimenopausal, and my energy levels have definitely decreased in the past few years. Plus we are having a tough time at the moment (PIL health issues; DH being made redundant), so I often take the easy route right now.

I prefer routines and rules, so I know I’m clinging to this setup for my convenience. DH is much more relaxed about these things, which is good as he balances me, but sometimes he’s too laid back, then complains that he ‘doesn’t know where the time goes’. See the late start to dinner above! However, he agrees that things need to change and will generally do as I ask about routines and timings. I think that DD also does best with a routine - it just needs to change now she is older.

If you are reading all this and thinking ‘possible neurodiversity’ - we’ve thought that too, and have discussed it with school. As DD has improved as she got older, we’re not doing anything more that monitoring at the moment. I know that ND girls can often manage at primary but struggle with the move to secondary, so I’m worried about this too. DH and I probably have some ND traits as well, but not enough for a diagnosis or to struggle with everyday life.

If you have managed to get through this wall of text, any suggestions or advice would be welcome!

• Edited to add - DD does better if she has a routine to follow, so I need advice on shifting to a less strict routine that will encourage her to be more independent and require less supervision from us.

I think you need to focus on the small things that would make the biggest difference. Showers instead of a bath, easing out of sitting around in case she needs you (she’s old enough to come find you), staying downstairs while she gets herself ready. All this up and down and jumping in and out sounds exhausting for everyone.

You are clearly and loving and caring parent but there are ways to fix these quirks - get a timer for the toothbrushing, figure out what she needs to wash her own hair (though it’s much easier in a shower so that’s what I’d do first), leave a light on in the hall so she can find you… etc.

A few people have suggested showering instead of a bath - DD wasn’t keen on the idea when I’ve mentioned it before, but I’ll try again. I think she’d find it easier to wash her own hair in the shower compared to the bath.

Thanks for the suggestions of how to change the routine - I feel we’ve been stuck it in for so long that I can’t imagine how to change things, but your comments are very useful and I’ll think about how we could adjust things. DD would love an Alexa (we don’t have one at the monent), so that might be the way forward.

A couple of people asked why I don’t just send her upstairs by herself to get ready for bed - that’s partly because I think she’d get distracted, and partly because I want to supervise what she watches on the iPad. The thought of having iPad time downstairs then sending her upstairs never occurred to me 🤦‍♀️ She does get ready in the morning on her own, but she’s motivated by being on time for school.

Regarding all the comments about ND and assessment - I’m surprised as I felt that the behaviours we were concerned about had disappeared or improved. The fact that so many people have picked up on it is concerning, and I now think that we do need to consider this more. She’s currently in a small nurturing primary school, and our life is set up with a lot of routine, so it could be that we’ve adapted to her needs without thinking about it. I appreciate all the comments and advice on this.

I have a dd the same age with asd. They sound very similar. She has developed what she can manage over the years, I don’t know why you think the fact she can cope with more as she gets older means she’s NT?
In my experience schools aren’t always great at picking up compliant ND girls.

OP I could have written this...right down to the issues with screens and my chronic illness! What helped us eas to create a new routine and that worked better for us, make the changes gradually, explain on advance and have a written timetable. For example the first things we changed was dd getting out of the bath herself (we have a small clock in there), and doing her teeth straight after her bath. Then she goes straight into her room, reads or drawers and we come up to tell her it's bedtime around 8.40. She goes up for her bath around 7.40. Use the fact she likes routine to your advantage....just create a new one that works for you. There was quite a bit of pushback at first, but now this is her new routine!

My autistic DDs find a visual chart helpful, I just quickly drew the steps and wrote next to them as they're dyslexic too. They set a 2 min timer on alexa themselves.

Could you tweak the routine e.g. busy yourself with cleaning up after dinner and say once she comes downstairs in her PJs you can have the iPad downstairs then back up for teeth etc?

I find discussing the change in advance e.g. the night before this is the last time we'll do it this way, then at dinner remember tonight you'll be doing x instead of y helps. And tweak gradually.

Also, you don’t have to implement the changes all at once. Maybe just weekends initially, so showers at weekends, baths during the week, fur example. She may find too much change all at once too much to handle.

I would start on showers instead of baths and teach her to wash her hair herself. When she starts secondary school she might need to shower and wash hair herself at school/swimming so good to start now. My daughter is the same age and it is extremely painful, especially when she insists on no assistance with rinsing and has to go to school with a fringe like Ace Ventura the next day 😂

I honestly think it will just happen. They grow up so much in year 7 and 8. I used to think it took a long time to get mine to bed, now they just put themselves to bed and I miss it. And they are mostly upstairs in their rooms so we see them very little in the evenings.

Crikey, it all sounds quite complex to me with some boundary/control issues prevailing and possibly some ND but whose I'm not sure.

The bedtime screens were a poor introduction but I don't know how you break that now. Ours were read to as babies/tots and.the progression to independent reading was natural.

At 10 it really should be bath and bed without the faffing of you being upstairs and her in your room. Can't you give her the ipad for 15 minutes and go up and remove it?

Some things worry me.

The working when is home from school, that gives poor messages and I'd have thought that if she can't have your time then she'd be better off at after school club.

I'm unclear what she does after school: tennis, gymnastics, music, swimming, drama, guides, having a friend round, etc. You make no mention of her activities.

The emphasis on what works for you rather than for her.

It may help to engage with some parenting classes/family therapy. One or more of you may be ND but at present your dd is your priority. I can't work out if the routine and rigidity comes from you, her or a combination.

I wouldn't give much weight to what school teachers say. If your dd is performing academically and masking, they will have bigger issues to focus on, quite apart from not being clinically trained.

It's likely you will have to pay for help and suppprt.

@EllieQ - I just read your update and yes, it’s very likely your entire life is set up around her so your normal is just to accommodate. I genuinely didn’t notice lots about my daughter until my son got a bit older and it was so different. Going through the assessment process made me really think about it. It’s second nature to keep buying her the same trainers, to buy 10 pairs of leggings in hopes she’ll be able to cope with one of them, to answer 15 anxious texts a day… then my son came along and it all started being really obvious.

When she started high school last year it was a nightmare. My big regret is not being more proactive earlier but it was covid times (which suited her in a lot of ways - no crowds!) and I got long Covid and was in and out of hospital and and and… and the years passed. If we’d noticed earlier we could have gotten more support or at least learned more about how to help her but we are catching up now.

@EllieQ I'll be completely honest. I think your DD is ND and I think the fact that it's not screaming out at you is that you are too.

A word of warning: all 3 of my girls are ND. One always went to special school (LD). One limped through primary school and then struggled in secondary. Lockdown kept her going, then she fell apart after that and needed a special school. One did well at primary school. Quirks evident, sometimes tricky at home. Very academic. Fell apart in year 9 and now goes to a special school.

Bedtime. Written routine. Timers. Alarms on an Alexa, or even just your phone.

List of possible activities somewhere for her to refer to.
Bat everything back 'what can I do?' 'what do you suggest?'

Think where you need her to be by next September in terms of general independence, thinking for herself, problem solving, and strategise how to get there.

Play 'what if' - what if X happens, what would you do. etc.

Give a target with rewards. When you can do XY and Z then I'll know you are ready for A & B.

Teach her how to wash her own hair!

I think you are giving her too much agency . Mentioning showers but she’s not keen etc. You need to tell her that bedtime cannot take this long. She needs to be in the bath or shower by X time and needs to wash her own hair regardless ( does she need to wash her hair every time?) . You expect her in bed by Y time. If she’s not there are consequences. And you need to follow through

Just to add to this, it’s very common for ND traits in adult women to become more apparent in perimenopause, so this could be a factor in what’s happening here too.

The bit where you say her behaviours had improved, that’s because of the way she is managing them, the strict routine etc. I would definitely be pushing for assessment but in the shorter term just switch your thinking up because it just sounds like she needs you an isn’t ready for the more independence that you think she should have. It’s ok to do things ‘in their own time’ and for me that should apply whether ND or NT. We are an autistic household and everything you have said screams ND, please consider setting the ball rolling. Also remember DD is masking and using her routine to try to present what you want to see, this will be very difficult and stressful for her and she maybe just needs a break, to know it’s ok and for you to not try forcing more independence yet.

FWIW the ‘wheels falling off when going into secondary’ for one of mine resulted in deep school based trauma and we ended up removing him from school when he was just 12. That was with all the support.

Take the ipad right out of the bedtime routine especially if she struggles with the transition of coming off it.

How about changing the screen time rules so that once she is home and has changed, done her homework and had a snack etc she can have screen time until dinner. Then it's a natural time to come off it rather than an abstract timer.
No screen time then after dinner. Once she's ready for bed she can read in bed for a bit.

My 10 year old's bedtime routine was: sent up for a shower at 8ish, I went up at 8.30 to check they had brushed their teeth and helped dry their hair.
Lights out by 9.

My DS is now 13 but he is a faffer if allowed so he gets a shower straight after dinner, if he wants to mess about then it's on his own time. Teeth are then cleaned at 8.30 for the same reasons. He is in bed at 9 to read and lights out at 9.15, we then go up and say good night. We found when we did showers and teeth clean at bed time he would take ages but when it's now impacting on his screen time he is much more time efficient.

The iPad is immediately jumping out as an issue here, as you have observed that she struggles with coming off it/transition. Its stimulating her brain at a time when she should be winding down. They are designed to stimulate your brain and be addictive, and when and how we use them is just as important as what we use them for.
I would try:

• No iPad upstairs.
• Last iPad time a lot earlier.
• Maybe a little bundle of new books to cushion the blow?

I'd also think about talking to her about the changes ahead of time rather than springing them on her at bedtime, maybe other posters will be able to suggest ways to discuss it with her, on neutral ground like a weekend morning or similar.

“Think where you need her to be by next September in terms of general independence, thinking for herself, problem solving, and strategise how to get there.”

Good advice from @TeenToTwenties . But also consider the wider element. Ie. Think about what senior school she’s going to and start preparing her for the journey there and back. Don’t panic, you have plenty of time, but if it involves a bus rude, start taking buses. If it involves a walk, then go for a walk at weekends, and coincidentally pass the school. If you always get her bag or clothes ready for school, or an activity, then start encouraging her to do this the night before.

I have one DD your dd's age and one now 14 but who sounds more similar to your DD. I think things do naturally evolve as their body clock shifts. I think I made it a cut off for story being read and help with hair combing but she could choose to stay up a bit later if she was prepared to put herself to bed. This eased the transition. I read her last bedtime story just before age turned 12 but it had become sporadic before then. It's all very well saying say goodbye to your evenings but there's a difference between having an awake dd and being on constant bedtime duty for hours. And once they're a bit older you can find things to watch you enjoy together, or they prefer time in their rooms sometimes anyway, so it's a transitional phase.

In terms of more independence, especially if she is ND I think you need to scaffold the changes. So perhaps lay out her clothes for the morning for her to get dressed. And say you'll pop up to check she's in her pyjamas in 5 mins, rather than waiting with her?

My dd's hair is the worst bit because it's thick and long and needs endless combing to keep on top of tangles and nits which she can't really manage properly. At a similar age dd1 chose a shorter style she could manage herself and I'm hoping dd2 might do soon too. But sometimes I'll do her bath and hair earlier and let her come back down in her pjs.

What would you like her to do be doing to make her more independent OP? I think that's the first thing to decide. You then need to break that down for her into small stages and supervise her until she's confident in doing it herself.

I think washing her own hair should be possible now, instead of doing it yourself why not now just supervise her doing it. Talk her through each stage, then after a while it will become routine and she'll be able to do it without your there.

I would do the same with her making her breakfast and making a packed lunch (if she isn't already).

Perhaps you could have a jar full of suggestions of things she could do with her spare time - and if she wants something to do she could pull one out and do that rather than come ask you?

How much time are you spending one on one doing something with her though? Maybe when she's asking what she can do next she's hoping you might suggest doing something together? It doesn't sound like you have much time or energy to do fun things together really, are you just spending all your time standing around waiting for her to ask for instructions or to fall asleep? Why not read to her rather than her being on screens. There are plenty of great books for tweens and it will be much better for her to help with getting to sleep.

It sounds like you're putting loads of effort to her in all the wrong ways - but that might just be the impression from one little snapshot of course .

It's ok to say to your daughter, "This routine worked for a while but it's not working anymore" and introduce some changes, maybe one at a time. She doesn't have to give her full approval. Your needs matter too.

It sounds like using the ipad at bedtime is a huge hassle. Can that be phased out?

And even if she doesn't like the idea of having a bath instead of a shower, you can still insist that she needs to take a shower instead - you might have to help her the first couple times but she'll likely eventually be able to do it more or less independently.

In terms of neurodivergence... I'm no expert but don't all kids get distracted easily and prefer some kind of ro
utine?

I'm no expert but don't all kids get distracted easily and prefer some kind of routine

Well no…. Not necessarily. My 10 year old is perfectly capable of getting herself showered and ready for bed without any prompting/supervision, and the process varies every evening depending on what else she’s got on (football training, hockey training, playing out with friends etc). Equally the OP herself said that she had concerns about potential neurodiversity which have been discussed with the school, so people aren’t saying it solely based on the fact that she likes an evening routine and is easily distracted.
Obviously no one on here can say if the OP’s daughter is ND or not, but there are enough indicators in her post that it is worth considering pushing for an assessment, as ND girls often flounder when they get to secondary school. If she’s not ND she won’t be diagnosed with anything, so no harm done.