Four year old behaviour atrocious

[gonebadlywrong]

I know I must have gone badly wrong somewhere. I feel like I just don’t like who he is much, I know that’s horrible but he’s just awful.

I was driving somewhere today and all the way he wouldn’t stop leaning across, poking his sister, taking her toys off her, just generally trying to make her scream. He just cackles manically when you tell him to stop. He just finds it funny no matter how angry you get.

Doesn’t give a shit about any consequences.

I am embarrassed by how he’s behaved today. It’s been the shittiest day ever.

Well I'd start off at looking at his car seat. He should be securely strapped in as he's too young for an adult seatbelt, especially when he's not sitting nicely. How is he outside of the car?

He has https://www.pramworld.co.uk/britax-romer-versafix-space-black/?gclsrc=aw.ds&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=19588117415&gbraid=0AAAAAD_X_9R0q3ioT-CSRpwJk1H2qv7wJ&gclid=CjwKCAjw04HIBhB8EiwA8jGNbY6VKROFC3UXBH0oMiehFDgj-mjNJyhk049kMO2M-IejGwTOhvqLRRoC4rQQAvD_BwE , it was recommended. No idea if it’s the wrong one, I did ask for recommendations when we switched him. He sort of leans across so his upper body is lying down.

Today he’s been horrific. He isn’t normally that bad but he can get really really silly and almost manic. He was very tired but still.

You ought to be able to make the straps of that so he can't reach round to a sibling (I'm guessing in an infant seat?).
Start by making sure the shoulders are coming out of the seat at the right height - around shoulder height, but check your specific instructions for just about or just below.
And once that is right, make sure they are tight enough - and no big coats. Blankets over him& straps if needed.

Whilst that won't stop the disobedience, it could well make driving much more straightforward and less distracting.

He can get his arms out of the straps really easily though, it’s been the same whatever car seat we’ve ever used, he just ends up with his arms out.

Hugs! How old is sister? Is he just turned 4 or closer to 5?

DC1 is 5.5 and still prone to low level silliness. Seems to get a kick out of a reaction. But it’s a lot less relentless than this time last year. He can also be a really nice human being now, where as every minute was a struggle age 3.5 to 5. We had lots of clear, instant consequences and then talked about good behaviour after events. We never shouted or got cross. Just stayed really calm and tried not to tolerate ‘constant sh*ttery’ (as my husband called these moods) as much as possible.

No idea if any of that made a difference or if it was just a case of time! Hope you have some wine in the fridge x

If his arms are out of the straps then he’s not safe, that needs addressing. If there’s an accident he would be in a lot of danger.

What consequences does he get for bad behaviour?

Can you put his sister in the front with the airbag off?
Would he be better in a high backed booster than a toddler seat? I know it’s not normally recommended if they don’t ‘sit nicely’ but I found the slight freedom of movement the seatbelt offered vs. the harness was enough to stop any escape attempts and we actually didn’t have problems once we switched. If he meets the minimum height then it be worth a trial on some slow local roads, preferably when another adult can sit in the back with him to keep an eye.
He needs consquences for bad behaviour. There must be something he cares about that you can use.

@gonebadlywrong Why is he getting away with doing that though OP? It’s horrendously unsafe. If he can’t sit properly in a car seat to keep him safe then he shouldn’t be in the car.

FWIW, my 4.5yo DS is being extremely testing with his behaviour at the moment and is pushing boundaries left right and centre. I’m hoping it’s some kind of developmental stage that they all go through 🫠
If he’s just being difficult then I tend to just ignore it and he soon gets bored of whatever he’s doing. Anything that hurts other people/damages things/is genuinely unsafe then it’s punishment.

I know this thread is going off topic now, but he absolutely should not be able to do this. Please please look at the straps. He needs to be safely constrained in the harness.

He has to go in the car. I can’t get him to school without a car or to anything else - we don’t live next to a shop or anything.

I am not totally sure I understand the arms out thing, the straps don’t pin arms down so it’s fairly easy to get out of them. He doesn’t always do it but definitely can if he wants to IYSWIM.

He is horrendous in just a normal booster seat, just won’t sit still at all. That’s why I bought that one.

Problem is he just doesn’t seem to care about any sort of punishment. I am genuinely a bit stumped as to what to actually do. I feel like nine times out of ten it comes don to ‘don’t do that or I will tell you not to do it again and again.’ His face is a mess where his sister has attacked him because he won’t leave her be but he still goes back for more, I don’t pretend to understand it.

The straps go over his shoulders and then clip into a fastener that goes between his legs. I would think most able bodied children would be able to get their arms out if they wanted to, all you’d have to do is wriggle around a bit.

I would talk to him before getting in the car. Explain the requirements of acceptable behaviour whilst in the car. (Clear easy to comprehend details) and explain that if he doesn’t do as you require you will asap stop, park and wait for him to behave. And apologise.
And repeat until he grasps that poor behaviour in the car means no journey.

I imagine this might mean you/ he is late for things for a week or so but so be it. Safety whilst driving is obviously essential.

The problem with that @Okiedokie123 is it assumes he wants to go where we’re going. And sometimes he doesn’t. So he’d rather enjoy that, if it made him late for school every day or made me late for an appointment for instance … If he was in the sort of mood he was in today he’d just be in peals of laughter.

I think I am kind of out of ideas. I was so so angry today I scared myself.

@gonebadlywrong How long is the journey to school/shop etc?

If the harness is done up properly with straps at the appropriate height and done up as tight as they should be then it shouldn’t be that easy for him to get out of it. Have you tried him in a rear facing seat?

Are you actually following through with punishment though OP? And I ask that because I know how hard it actually is to face doing it when you know you’re going to get the kick off. Maybe he doesn’t care about punishment because he knows it’s just threatened?

Completely agree with @Okiedokie123 - if he doesn’t follow the rules in the car then it’s stop, wait until he behaves to go again. If it takes all day then it takes all day.

“He doesn’t seem to care about any sort of punishment” I’m sure he will if he has to stay in a stationary car over and over again until he gets it. I’d make sure that it’s super boring whilst sitting there not moving too. No music, toys etc. (a book might be handy for you though!)
Possibly for the first few days/ week you might have to make alternative arrangements for his sister. Sort his behaviour out first and then his behaviour with the addition of his sister there too.

My son (5) is and was able to get out of any car seat arm straps he wants. Any car seat. So I get you on this part completely

No, he really wouldn’t, he would fucking love it. Sitting in the car is one of his favourite things, especially if he’s missing school

It tends to happen when he’s in a stupid mood and his sister is there; he isn’t like this alone (and no people I cannot return her; she is out of warranty.)

I’m not sure how a child couldn’t - I mean, if there were material straps over my shoulders and I wanted to get them off, I could, I mean, I don’t as per my seatbelt but I could quite easily.

My first reaction was to ask if he behaves like this in other situations? When 'normal' punishments don't work you could consider looking into neurodivergent reasons. Speaking from personal experience as a Mum and teacher. Xxx

Youll just have to be consistent regardless. I really doubt that after a week or so of sitting in a stationary car for ages with no toys, no conversation is going to be preferable to sitting nicely with the result of school/nursery/the park etc.
(for context I have a now adult son with major behavioural issues -boundaries, persistence and consistency are key!)

What is his behaviour like when not in a car? At school, at home?

But the straps should start at shoulder height, and be pulled tight enough (over thin clothes - no winter coats, no hoodies) so you as an adult can get a couple of fingers in. There really shouldn't be too much movement. The only times my kids have got out of a harnessed seat is when I've not raised the shoulder straps after a growth spurt.

How old is his sister?

And is there anything he does value?? Other than skipping school!

Thanks. I have wondered about it, I think it’s hard not to in a way but I don’t think he is. I think it is more that when he’s in a really stupid mood which is linked to tiredness he seems to go almost manic where you just can’t seem to ‘reach’ him with ordinary telling off and time out and what have you. It is horrible as what tends to happen is I get more and more frustrated, end up completely losing my shit and then he ends up crying and distressed which has happened today about three times!

He isn’t like this all the time, in fact it’s fairly unusual but it does happen and I absolutely hate it. It’s also triggered by DH being around - not trying to ‘blame’ DH but sometimes he is rather horrid when he has two parents and not one. So triggers seem to be both parents being around and his sibling. Marvellous.

My autistic with adhd 4 year old is always doing things to her older sister, today she spat at her just for being in the room, but it because her sister is always grumpy at her and she just wants her out the room again. Its really stressful. Its been this way a while.

@Cantseetreesforthewood there isn’t but still all you have to do is to wriggle around a bit and you’re free.

@Okiedokie123 the car was only part of it today. He’s been utterly awful all day. He isn’t normally like that but his behaviour today has been atrocious. I would say silly and it has been but that downplays it. It has literally been an entire day of this stupid, stupid laugh, singing loudly (shouting really) at the top of his voice, throwing things, arguing, tormenting his sister and talking in a stupid voice. I am struggling to find anything positive from today.